| ▲ | eric-burel 18 hours ago |
| Developers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet. Using an LLM UI like open ai is like we just figured fire and you use it to warm you hands (still impressive when you think about it, but not worth the burns), while LLM development is about building car engines (here is you return on investment). |
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| ▲ | Jensson 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Developers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet There are thousands of startups doing exactly that right now, why do you think this will work when all evidence points towards it not working? Or why else would it not already have revolutionized everything a year or two ago when everyone started doing this? |
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| ▲ | eric-burel 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of them are a bunch of prompts and don't even have actual developers. For the good reason that there is no training system yet and the wording of how you call the people that build these system isn't even there or clearly defined. Local companies haven't even setup a proper internal LLM or at least a contract with a provider.
I am in France so probably lagging behind USA a bit especially NY/SF but the word "LLM developer" is just arriving now and mostly under the pressure of isolated developers and companies like me. This feel really really early stage. | | |
| ▲ | aquariusDue 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Between the ridiculously optimistic and the cynically nihilistic I personally believe there is some value that extremely talented people at huge companies can't really provide because they're not in the right environment (too big a scale) but neither can grifters packaging a prompt in a vibecoded app. In the last few months the building blocks for something useful for small companies (think less than 100 employees) have appeared, now it's time for developers or catch-all IT at those companies and freelancers serving small local companies to "up-skill". Why do I believe this? Well for a start OCR became much more accessible this year cutting down on manual data entry compared to tesseract of yesteryear. | |
| ▲ | liveoneggs 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | is there a non-prompt way to interact with LLMs? | | |
| ▲ | eric-burel 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | In an agentic setup the value is half the prompts half how you plug them together. I am opposing for instance a big prompt that is supposed to write a dissertation vs a smart web scraper that builds a knowledge graph out of sources and outputs a specialized search engine for your task. The former is a free funny intern, the latter is growth percentage visible in the economy. |
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| ▲ | __loam 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The smartest and most well funded people on the planet have been trying and failing to get value out of this technology for years and the best we've come up with so far is some statistically unreliable coding assistants. Hardly the revolution its proponents keep eagerly insisting we're seeing. | | |
| ▲ | eric-burel 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They try to get value at their scale, which is tough. Your local SME definitely sees value in an embedding-based semantic search engine over their 20 years of weird unstructured data. | |
| ▲ | liveoneggs 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | my company has already fired a bunch of people in favor of LLMs so they are realizing all kinds of value | | |
| ▲ | dasil003 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don’t know your company but this thinking doesn’t necessarily follow logically. In a large company the value of developers is not distributed evenly across people and time, and also has a strong dependency on market realities in front of them. While it’s true that lots of companies are getting some value out of LLMs, a much larger number are using them as an excuse for layoffs they would have wanted to do anyway—LLMs are just a golden opportunity to tie in an unmitigated success narrative. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > a much larger number are using them as an excuse for layoffs they would have wanted to do anyway It's a simple formula. Layoffs because of market conditions or company health = stock price go down. Layoffs because "AI took the jobs" = stock price go up. |
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| ▲ | sensanaty 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So has mine, and quite predictably our product has gone into the shitter and breaks constantly, requiring reverts almost daily. They've armed a couple of Juniors with Cursor and given them the workload of all those people they fired / have quit since the firings, some of which have been at the company for years and held a lot of institutional knowledge that is now biting them in the ass. Now sure, "Just don't fire the useful people and get rid of the juniors and supercharge the good devs with AI tooling" or whatever, except the whole reason the C-level is obsessed with this AI shit is because they're sold on the idea of replacing their most expensive asset, devs, because they've been told by people who sell AI as a job that it can replace those pesky expensive devs and be replaced by any random person in the company prompting up a storm and vibecoding it all. Churn rates are up, we're burning unfathomable amounts of money on the shitty AI tooling and the project has somehow regressed after we've finally managed to get a good foothold on it and start making real progress for once. Oh and the real funny part is they're starting to backpedal a bit and have tried to get some people back in. I expect to hear a LOT more of this type of thing happening in the near future. As the idiots in charge start slowly realizing all the marketing sold to them on LinkedIn or wherever the fuck it is they get these moronic ideas from are literal, actual literal lies. | |
| ▲ | SketchySeaBeast 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I imagine they HOPE they'll realize value. A lot of people are acting on what might be, rather than what is, which makes sense given that the AI "thought leaders" (CEOs with billions invested that need to start turning a profit) are all promising great things soon™. | |
| ▲ | __loam 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah callousness does seem to be the leaking area of improvement. | |
| ▲ | Capricorn2481 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Only as much as replacing all your devs with a frog is "realizing value" |
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| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The best they've come up with is the LLM chatbot, which both OpenAI and Anthropic have as their flagship product because many people find it extremely valuable. Many people I know routinely use ChatGPT to help them write things, even those who were already good at writing, and if you don't think that's true at your workplace I strongly suspect it's because people aren't telling you about it. | | |
| ▲ | __loam 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Great, we've got mediocre writing from unprofitable companies that are subsidizing the cost of this technology. | | |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | What specifically do you find to be mediocre? I feel like LLMs write better than most people I know, myself included. There could be a mismatch on what the state of the art really is these days. In my experience, since the release of GPT-4 and especially 4o, ChatGPT has been able to do the vast majority of concrete things people tell me it can't do. |
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| ▲ | ReptileMan 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Or why else would it not already have revolutionized everything a year or two ago when everyone started doing this? The internet needed 20 years to take over the world. All of the companies of the first dot com bust are in the past. The tech is solid. |
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| ▲ | clarinificator 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Every booster argument is like this one. $trite_analogy triumphant smile |
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| ▲ | __loam 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 3 years into automating all white collar labor in 6 months. |
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| ▲ | pydry 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Theyre doing it so much it's practically a cliche. There are underserved areas of the economy but agentic startups is not one. |
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| ▲ | camillomiller 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >> Developers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet. What does this EVEN mean?
Do words have any value still, or are we all just starting to treat them as the byproduct of probabilistic tokens? "Agent architectures". Last time I checked an architecture needs predictability and constraints. Even in software engineering, a field for which the word "engineering" is already quite a stretch in comparison to construction, electronics, mechanics. Yet we just spew the non-speak "Agentic architectures" as if the innate inability of LLMs in managing predictable quantitative operations is not an unsolved issue. As if putting more and more of these things together automagically will solves their fundamental and existential issue (hallucinations) and suddenly makes them viable for unchecked and automated integration. |
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| ▲ | eric-burel 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | This means I believe we currently underuse LLM capabilities and their empirical nature makes it difficult to assess their limitations without trying.
I've been studying LLMs from various angles during a few months before coming to this conclusion, as an experienced software engineer and consultant. I must admit it is however biased towards my experience as an SME and in my local ecosystem. |
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| ▲ | dvfjsdhgfv 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Developers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet. For sure there is a portion of developers who don't care about the future, are not interested in current developements and just live as before hoping nothing will change. But the rest already gave it a try and realized tools like Claude Code can give excellent results for small codebases to fail miserably at more complex tasks with the net result being negative as you get a codebase you don't understand, with many subtle bugs and inconsistencies created over a few days you will need weeks to discover and fix. |
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| ▲ | eric-burel 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is a bit developer centric, I am much more impressed by the opportunities I see in consulting rather than applying LLMs to dev tasks.
And I am still impressed by the code it can output eventhough we are still in the funny intern stage in this area. | | |
| ▲ | Gormo 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I am much more impressed by the opportunities I see in consulting rather than applying LLMs to dev tasks. I expect there'll be a lot of consulting work in the near future in cleanup and recovery from LLM-generated disasters. |
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| ▲ | 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | mns 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >evelopers haven't even started extracting the value of LLMs with agent architectures yet. Which is basically what? The infinite monkey theorem? Brute forcing solutions for problems at huge costs? Somehow people have been tricked to actually embrace and accept that now they have to pay subscriptions from 20$ to 300$ to freaking code? How insane is that, something that was a very low entry point and something that anyone could do, is now being turned into some sort of classist system where the future of code is subscriptions you pay for companies ran by sociopaths who don't care that the world burns around them, as long as their pockets are full. |
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| ▲ | eric-burel 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't have a subscription not even an Open AI account (mostly cause they messed up their google account system). You can't extract value of an LLM by just using the official UI, you just scratch the surface of how they work. And yet there aren't much developers able to actually build an actual agent architecture that does deliver some value.
I don't include the "thousands" of startups that are clearly suffer from a signaling bias: they don't exist in the economy and I don't care about them like at all in my reasonning.
I am talking about actual LLM developers that you can recruit locally the same way you recruit a web developer today, and that can make sense out of "frontier" LLM garbage talk by using proper architectures. These devs are not there yet. | |
| ▲ | frizlab 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I cannot emphasize how much I agree with this comment. Thank you for writing it, I would never have had written it as well. | |
| ▲ | pj_mukh 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I pay $300 to fly from SF to LA when I could've just walked for free. Its true. How classist! |
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