| ▲ | NL807 2 days ago |
| >The lack of any Egyptian archeologists on most interesting and significant findings about Ancient Egypt is one. It seems like Egyptian archaeologists is a clique of academics that do not like to rock the apple cart and go against established ideas about Egyptian history. There is a lot of gate keeping going on, mostly in part of Zahi Hawass, a narcissist that likes to self insert into every research into the subject, and control publication of results, etc. Even worse, claim attribution for work he's not even part of. So, if you don't kiss the ring, or dare to challenge ideas without his blessing, you'll be pretty much become a pariah that will never access archaeological sites again. Because of this, research in the field seems to be stagnant. |
|
| ▲ | timschmidt 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| I think, as much or more than Hawass's ego, the fact that tourism to Egypt and specifically Giza amounts to nearly a tenth of Egypt's GDP: https://egyptianstreets.com/2024/12/09/tourism-contribution-... accounts for a lot of his behavior. It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years, and keeping the mysteries alive keeps the money flowing to the cult of Kufu or the modern equivalent. History for Granite ( https://www.youtube.com/@HistoryforGRANITE ) touches on this powerful explanation for several observable aspects of these ancient sites that otherwise defy explanation. The top of The Great Pyramid was likely flattened so that rich visitors could pay to have an unforgettable picnic at the top. Many passages were filled up with sand and rubble because guides didn't enjoy the extra time and effort in hot dark bat infested areas that tourists demanded. And so on. Zahi is carrying on a long tradition. |
| |
| ▲ | NL807 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Here's the thing, one can promote tourism while also being academically honest. Hawass just wants to be the top dog in the field and does not want to be wrong about some of the things he claimed in his publications. | |
| ▲ | sho_hn 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I quite enjoy that YouTube channel. I watch any history content on YouTube with enormous fear and worry of crackpottery and "alternative history"-type charlatanry, and I feel like this one hasn't let me down yet, though I'll probably never feel at ease watching it given the subject matter. | | |
| ▲ | timschmidt a day ago | parent [-] | | I really appreciate his nuanced stance that even cranks and kooks are capable of observation and recording what they see. And his obsession with correlating details through original historical accounts. And the work he's doing mapping the individual blocks of the casings and throughout the passages. It's one of the channels that convinced me that Youtube was a legitimate path for getting your scientific research funded. |
| |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's big business, has been for almost 5,000 years I think you're confusing "Egyptian economic activity related to tourism" with "the existence of civilization in Egypt". | | |
| ▲ | timschmidt 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | No, I'm not. The Great Pyramid was built circa 2500 - 2600 BC, or about 4600 years ago. I think it's fair to say that civilization was humming before that, and that even the construction likely attracted tourists. Seems to be part of the point of monuments. Djoser's pyramid seems to have been completed around a hundred years prior to that, and would have drawn crowds sufficient to warrant the large temple, grand entrance, and colonnades which are part of the complex. There is a great deal of evidence that offerings provided by people traveling to these complexes sustained the religious orders on site who provided guardianship, maintenance, and worship. And that this was planned as part of the construction. | | |
| ▲ | metalman 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Djosers pyramid has an inner chamber that is suported by massive cedar timbers hauled from Lebenon.....and we have the Epic of Gilgamesh which details the triumph of Gilgamesh over humbiwaba the forest guardian, and harvesting and transport of cedars from Lebenon, we also have the commercial records of the mesopotamians trading activities over vast distances and time periods, and so it is zero surprise to find that "the black haired people" also left there genetic's with the rest of the cultural, linguistic, and mythical baggage that we are consiously or un consiously hauling around, still. | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The tomb and temple complexes aren't built to accommodate demand. They're built at the size the king wants them to be, and used for official ceremonies. | | |
| ▲ | hoseja 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Try imagining what those official ceremonies are for actually. | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes a day ago | parent [-] | | They're for building the legitimacy of the king. What do you want me to imagine? | | |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | 9dev 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nope. There are literally voyage reports by Herodotus, who describes guides to the pyramids, street food vendors, and translators. That was about 2500 years ago, for example. | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You might notice that 2500 years ago is a lot less than 5000 years ago. 5000 years ago, there were no guides to the pyramids. There was no tourism. There wasn't really writing, either. Today tourism makes up a little more than 10% of the economy of Egypt. 2500 years ago, it would have been around 0%, for the simple reason that almost nobody could afford to be a tourist. The big businesses were grain and gold. 5000 years ago, it was actually 0%. That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society. | | |
| ▲ | JetSpiegel 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Just because they were called pilgrims, they did the same thing as modeen tourists, with the corresponding economic activities: visiting landmarks, sleeping, eating, shopping. Praying wasn't even free, if they had to sacrifice some animal. | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | A_D_E_P_T 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > That's when the desertification of the Sahara began and the people who had lived there came to Egypt and inserted themselves at the top of society. It's very interesting to imagine the "green Sahara" cultures, with all of their cities and temples now under tons of sand, that we otherwise have no knowledge of. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | eddythompson80 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yes, Zahi Hawass is a comical example at this point. But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Zahi Hawass is just the current sociopath to happen to benifiet from the situation to call himself a "scholar". I spent a significant part of my teen years in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. There isn't really 1 unified feelings towards the "Ancient Egypt" history among Egyptians. First time I heard about the "Ancient Aliens" conspiracy WAS from an Egyptian. I never really paid the theory much attention until all the articles about how "it's a racist theory" "basically indigenous people can't do things without aliens" narrative was surprising. There was pride in the telling of the conspiracy theory of Ancient Egyptians contacting aliens. "Of course when the Aliens visited Earth, they had to come to Egypt, you konw. We were in touch with aliens and had far more advanced technologies than all other societies. sadly it's been lost" type thinking. The general opinion was split between people who don't give a shit about all this pharo shit, people who think it's a cool marketing story in the 21st century, people who think it's their history and identity. It was allover the place |
| |
| ▲ | wileydragonfly 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m amazed he’s still at it but the last time I checked in on him he was fighting against all that “ancient aliens” crap so he’s not all bad. | |
| ▲ | Ozzie_osman 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > But I'm afraid he is merely the manifestation of general desire from the political regime as well as the majority of the uneducated masses there. Hawass may be more a manifestation of what foreigners believe an Egyptologist should look like: Indiana Jones hat, cigar, etc. He is influential in large parts because of his popularity in the media outside Egypt. | |
| ▲ | prmph 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | They are ambivalent about "all this pharo" stuff because it is not really their heritage. | | |
| ▲ | theultdev 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > because it is not really their heritage Could you expand on this? | | |
| ▲ | ggm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not OP but.. The ptolemaic Pharaohs (Cleopatra..) and after are not related to the dynastic cultures which made the pyramids. They were greeks. Subsequent occupation by post Roman cultures including the Byzantine, and Islamic Arabic tribes, and the Ottomans, means the culture and genetics of modern Egypt have little to do with pyramids and pre-roman era mummies and culture/religion/beliefs. Waves of occupation over 2000 years eroded any cultural link. What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. Nasser was an arabist, as were the young egypt political movement of the 19th century. It's like asking why modern British people aren't strongly identifying with pictish culture or beaker people. The Egyptian archaeologists assert nationalism and cultural goals and have to deal with Islamic fundamentalists who push back on pre Islamic religious artefacts. Saudi archaeologists have similar pressures. | | |
| ▲ | prmph 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Thanks, you explained it better than I might have. > What I read suggests the Berbers have some historical relationship and the Bedouin less. I understand the Copts in Egypt also have a stronger relationship to the ancient culture than the the population as a whole. |
| |
| ▲ | tmp10423288442 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Modern Egyptians are primarily Arab. If anyone is a descendant of the Ancient Egyptians, it’s the Coptic Christians, who still use a descendant of the Ancient Egyptian language as a liturgical language and mostly don’t have any Arabic ancestry (since the child of an Arab Muslim and a Copt would almost always be considered an Arab Muslim). | |
| ▲ | dismalaf a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Egypt is an Arab country. They're literally called the Arab Republic of Egypt. Before that the United Arab Republic. Official language Arabic. Arabs came from Arabia, not Egypt. Copts are a bit closer to ancient Egypt (their language especially) but their religion is Orthodox Christianity which influences their culture, which came out of the Greek/Roman culture of Ptolemaic-Roman Egypt. | | |
| ▲ | eddythompson80 a day ago | parent [-] | | Oh boy, the subject of Egyptian identity is a complicated subject. Are they Arabs? Egyptians? Muslims? Mediterraneans? Pharaohs? Coptic? Bedouin? Berbers? An "Arab" is not a race nor is it exclusionary with Ancient Egypt. If someone had an uninterrupted ancestory line from today to Ramasis II, those ancestors learned Arabic at some point and became Arabs or Muslims themselves. Ok, most Egyptians I have known would immediately strike out Berbers/Amazeghs identity. They actively dislike "amazeghs" and consider them foreigners even though they look the same, speak the same language, and plenty are legally Egyptians with families that have lived there since the 17th century. Egyptians consider them imposters and maybe thats why they are hated more than the "obviously a foreigner". At least the latter isn't pretending. But at the "Bedouin" the lines start getting blurred. They identify as independent tribes that partially moved from Arabia in the 7th or 8th century and they are very very adamant about their independence from the Egyptian state and their right to self determination and how they live. They are the libertarians of Egypt, except they actually practice a fully bedouin/nomad/libertarian lifestyle. The state is always fighting with them. Most regular Egyptians I knew consider them Egyptians despite their disapproval. Egyptians public like the bedouins in general. It's a romanticized existence. The Arabic/Egyptian/Muslim/Christian/Coptic/Pharaonic/Roman/Greek/Ottomon identity of Egyptians (and arabs in general) is a subject of many books. | | |
| ▲ | prmph a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Are they Arabs? Egyptians? Muslims? Mediterraneans? Pharaohs? Coptic? Bedouin? Berbers? You forgot to add the Nubians/Cushites and other groups south of Egypt. Is it possible that the Egyptians lived next to them for thousands of years without any admixtures of genes and culture with them? | |
| ▲ | dismalaf a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > those ancestors learned Arabic at some point and became Arabs or Muslims themselves. Did they? Seems like this is erasure of the Copts, a people who, to this day, both still exist, mostly aren't Muslim and speak a language directly descended from ancient Egyptian. |
|
|
|
|
|