| ▲ | emacsen 17 hours ago |
| Aren't you making their point though? The ADL and other Jewish organizations have pointed out that aside from articles about Israel that articles about or mention Jewish topics generally have been editing with disinformation or that made Jews out to be the aggressors. I agree with you that in order to believe in the ideals of liberal democracy that we must have a core belief in truth. And it's absolutely true that the Trump administration has taken a position that is deeply chilling on the issue of speech. It's clear they want to be the sole arbiters of what "truth" is and they want to use their power to manipulate the reality. All that said, I cannot as a Jew ignore the fact that Wikipedia is not in itself neutral, and that "more eyes" does not negate systemic bias. What I've seen as a Jew is what the true meaning of marginalized minority is, which is to say that if you are truly a minority and truly marginalized then in a vote of "truth", your reality will be dismissed if it conflicts with the vast majority, and that Jews are only 0.2% of the world population. While I brought it up, I am not debating the issue of antisemitic bias in Wikipedia[1] as anything other than an illustration of your point of objective truth being true, but also that we can't simply rely on the wisdom of the crowd to materialize that truth. To preemptively address the issue that's bound to come up when I post this- I'm not arguing that the evils of silencing the entire Wikipedia project are equal to or a fair response to Wikipedia's antisemitic bias. I do believe Wikipedia needs to address its bias problem and that's best done through internal reform. Two wrongs don't make a right, nor are two wrongs always of equal weight. [1] Firstly because my point is separate, and secondly because I've encountered the exact issues I've found in Wikipedia elsewhere, which is why I'm sure I'll be voted down. |
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| ▲ | moshegramovsky 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I agree 100%. It's exhausting fighting against antisemitic bias, and it feels like it's everywhere these days. My problem with Ed Martin is that what he is doing is clearly wrong. Hannah Arendt wrote a book about people like him. |
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| ▲ | ummonk 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | At a time when students are having their visas revoked merely for writing Op-Eds critical of Israel, it's rather ridiculous to see the pro-Israel side acting like you're the ones being persecuted everywhere. | | | |
| ▲ | emacsen 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The fact that my comment is -2 on HN is a great example of the problem. I'm working on a solution to the effects of this isolation, but it's not ready for a big announcement. | |
| ▲ | giraffe_lady 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Could one of you point me to antisemitic bias on wikipedia just so I have a concrete example at hand? | | |
| ▲ | emacsen 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Basically, almost any time Zionists are mentioned, they're mentioned in a negative light and with genuine disinformation, such as that Zionism is the belief that Arabs needs to be destroyed. That is like saying the Civil Rights movement in the US was about killing white people. They also position things in such a way that implies antisemitic things, such as saying that Zionism is only 200 years old, or discussing the Israel wars only or primarily through an Arab lens. These biases around Jewish topics are small individually but large in aggregate, especially in how they present Jews and Jewish topics. Multiple Jewish and civil rights organizations have done a more comprehensive job at discussing this, even organizations who don't usually agree on things. While they talk about "anti-Israel bias" Wikipedia articles on or mentioning Zionism (80% of Jews are Zionist) are IMHO just as, if not more damaging, and demonstrate the issue. Most importantly though, talk to the Jews in your life about this. They will tell you. https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/wikipedia-entrie... https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-846563 https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/seven-tactics-wikipedia-edit... https://www.adl.org/resources/report/editing-hate-how-anti-i... https://www.standwithus.com/post/it-s-time-to-correct-wikipe... https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit... | | |
| ▲ | Braxton1980 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Basically, almost any time Zionists are mentioned, they're mentioned in a negative light and with genuine disinformation, Your first statement is a sweeping generalization that you can't prove | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know if that statement is true or not, but it certainly seems like a specific enough statement that could be proved or disproved given enough effort. |
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| ▲ | giraffe_lady 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Most of the jews I know are through anti-genocide activism and they have a different view of this. I wanted to check because it is important to me that I not engage in antisemitism. Thanks for the info. | | |
| ▲ | emacsen 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | The idea of contrasting what I said with being "anti-genocide" implies that people who disagree with you are "pro-genocide". Once one believes that those who disagree with them are "pro-genocide", then they can easily dismiss anything the other has to say say or any view they have, since they're functionally dehumanized. I would ask that, if you can, try to consider that there are nuances, and that using triggering language does not bring understanding, it only amplifies conflict. That said, this conversation has been too difficult for me, and I'm not going to engage with you on it further. | | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | hayst4ck 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Once one believes that those who disagree with them are "pro-genocide", then they can easily dismiss anything the other has to say say or any view they have, since they're functionally dehumanized. I would really like you to read this back to yourself and think about it deeply, really deeply. | | | |
| ▲ | giraffe_lady 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No I mean literally we are part of an organization focused on preventing and ending genocide broadly. Israel-palestine is one of them but there are several others ongoing and several more that may escalate into genocide in the next few months or years. I do see why you have a hard time with wikipedia. | | |
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| ▲ | moshegramovsky 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://www.adl.org/resources/report/editing-hate-how-anti-i... Read it for yourself. | | |
| ▲ | intermerda 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I tried giving it a shot. It starts with an "executive summary", followed by an intro to how Wikipedia works. The very first link to any concrete evidence is by a guy who has a page on PragerU with gems like "Russian collusion hoax" and how the "mainstream media" is "fake news". It's a pretty simple case of Wittgenstein's ruler for me. It tells me more about ADL as an org than the content. | |
| ▲ | hackandthink 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The analysis there is not convincing. It is obvious that Wikipedia admins communicate with each other. The fact that Aljazeera is referenced is also okay. In fact, this is not the official Israeli narrative, it seems rather trustworthy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_co... | |
| ▲ | Braxton1980 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Instead of posting another person's argument that contains your source can you be more specific? This is like citing an entire book to prove a point. | |
| ▲ | deeThrow94 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The ADL destroyed any credibility they had worked to build when they started conflating criticism of israel with antisemitism. | |
| ▲ | pesus 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not sure the organization that defended Musk's Nazi salute is a reliable source on antisemitism. |
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| ▲ | Hikikomori 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Anti semitism or anti Zionist? Asking as the ADL doesn't seem to understand that there's a difference. |
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| ▲ | TRiG_Ireland 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the same ADL that said that Nazi salutes are fine, but that protesting against genocide isn't? Why do we care what the ADL says about anything? They're fascist sympathisers. |
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| ▲ | moshegramovsky 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It was not remotely okay that they did this, and I agree that refusing to speak out severely hurt their credibility. The next time I get a fundraising email, I'm going to tell them they can kiss something. | |
| ▲ | emacsen 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Demanding moral perfection from an organization in order to believe that discrimination exists is a standard that I don't believe is fair to any group. | | |
| ▲ | TRiG_Ireland 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't demand "moral perfection", but I draw the line at overt fascism. The ADL are fascist sympathisers. | | |
| ▲ | emacsen 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Did you read the statement they put out later that day about Musk, or the day after? I agree this was a terrible move on the ADL's part, and there have been others, but you're essentially labeling the oldest anti-hate group "fascist" because you disagree with one statement they made. This dismisses any concerns they raise, or if someone else says the same as them, then they too must be pro-facist. | | |
| ▲ | cma 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | He also tweeted in approval of this tweet putting forward the "Jewish people planned it" antisemitic form of great replacement theory with "you have said the actual truth": > Jewish communties have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them. > I'm deeply disinterested in giving the tiniest shit now about western Jewish populations coming to the disturbing realization that those hordes of minorities that support flooding their country don't exactly like them too much. > You want truth said to your face, there it is. Then a bit later Musk gives the heil Hitler salute twice in a row, once facing the crowd, then turned around and gave it facing Trump. The stuff the ADL put out after the salutes was only after he added on jokes involving Nazi party members, right? Or was the one later that day before that? |
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| ▲ | giraffe_lady 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Could you point me to an example of what you have in mind on wikipedia? I'm admittedly not as practiced at discerning subtle antisemitism as I am some other forms of discrimination. But also usually when it's being alluded to in the abstract like this people mean something closer to "criticism of israel's actions." |
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