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jsphweid 4 days ago

I'm getting a little tired of hearing this quote at this point.

What about humoring the opposite?

I want AI to automate art so I can spend more time doing dishes and doing laundry. Dishes and laundry are purely analog human experiences. Art, at this point, is essentially digital, and digital is the domain of machines so we can let machines do that now.

tdb7893 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

What's to humor here? Do you have a passion for laundry and dishes? Do you spend your free time gleefully dirtying dishes just so you can wash them again? Is art or music something you feel forced to do but don't want to?

I am struggling to understand what's really the opposite here. I don't think anyone views art as the same sort of burden as people view dishes. It's not something you're forced to do (even in the situations you do need it it's pretty trivial to buy).

jsphweid 4 days ago | parent [-]

> What's to humor here?

Analog human experiences.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I want AI to automate everything, so that I can exist in a pod, fed intravenously, in a permanent vegetative state.

Toenex 4 days ago | parent [-]

I want AI to be able to do everything so the I can choose to do anything.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

If it can do everything, then you will be redundant.

dgfl 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I keep coming back to this thought. Maybe it’s how I was raised, but knowing that I’m doing something useful to other people / humanity is the entire point.

When a machine can do everything better than we can, then what do we derive meaning from?

I usually get out of the existential dread by thinking that we’re still some time away from the issue, and that there will still be some pursuits left, like space colonization. But it’s not fully satisfying.

skerit 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Maybe it’s how I was raised, but knowing that I’m doing something useful to other people / humanity is the entire point.

Exactly. The thought of spending hours on something that an AI could do in minutes sounds horrible to me.

int_19h 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

He walked for days, stopping at bars and restaurants whenever he felt thirsty, hungry, or tired; mostly they were automatic and he was served by little floating trays, though a few were staffed by real people. They seemed less like servants and more like customers who’d taken a notion to help out for a while.

“Of course I don’t have to do this,” one middle-aged man said, carefully cleaning the table with a damp cloth. He put the cloth in a little pouch, sat down beside him. “But look, this table’s clean.”

He agreed that the table was clean.

“Usually,” the man said. “I work on alien – no offense – alien religions; Directional Emphasis In Religious Observance; that’s my specialty… like when temples or graves or prayers always have to face in a certain direction; that sort of thing? Well, I catalog, evaluate, compare; I come up with theories and argue with colleagues, here and elsewhere. But… the job’s never finished; always new examples, and even the old ones get reevaluated, and new people come along with new ideas about what you thought was settled… but” – he slapped the table – “when you clean a table you clean a table. You feel you’ve done something. It’s an achievement.”

“But in the end, it’s still just cleaning a table.”

“And therefore does not really signify anything on the cosmic scale of events?” the man suggested.

He smiled in response to the man’s grin, “Well, yes.”

“But then, what does signify? My other work? Is that really important either? I could try composing wonderful musical works, or day-long entertainment epics, but what would that do? Give people pleasure? My wiping this table gives me pleasure. And people come to a clean table, which gives them pleasure. And anyway” – the man laughed – “people die; stars die; universes die. What is any achievement, however great it was, once time itself is dead? Of course, if all I did was wipe tables, then of course it would seem a mean and despicable waste of my huge intellectual potential. But because I choose to do it, it gives me pleasure. And,” the man said with a smile, “it’s a good way of meeting people. So where are you from anyway?”

(Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons")

Juliate 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

AI will never be able to actually express and reveal my own self to my own self or to others.

That's what art _is_.

Sometimes, it produces something that could be aesthetically pleasing but that's a different matter.

And how it is monetised is a different matter again.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We can join the Amish and reject all technology based on AI.

There may be a war against Big Tech. Terrorist attacks on data centers and robot factories.

int_19h 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Guess who wins in a war where one side has killer drone swarms with thermal vision, and the other one doesn't?

The only way to win this fight is to embrace the tech and put it to good use, not to shun it.

voidspark 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

If “put it to good use” means the value of human labor drops to zero, and everyone loses their job to ASI, then violent resistance is inevitable.

int_19h 3 days ago | parent [-]

It definitely is (and I would encourage that even).

But such resistance cannot be luddite if it actually wants to win. Therefore, its goal cannot be "no AI", but rather "AI used for the benefit of society".

voidspark 3 days ago | parent [-]

With ASI there is no way that we can control it with absolute certainty.

Controlling something that is vastly more intelligent than humans is fundamentally difficult.

int_19h 3 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not worried about controlling ASI acting on its own behalf.

What we need is to prevent humans in position of power from using the fledging AI that they control to entrench themselves and stomp on the rest of us.

voidspark 3 days ago | parent [-]

ASI can not be reliably controlled by any humans.

It makes as much sense as chimpanzees or rats controlling humans.

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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j4coh 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The technologists have no qualms about encroachment on your space.

pjmlp 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Someone has been watching Netflix.

eucryphia 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

As long as we have a choice.

Not that long ago you would lose your job because you refused to take an experimental vaccination that didn’t prevent transmission.

amanaplanacanal 3 days ago | parent [-]

Were there a lot of jobs that required vaccinations? I expect health care and military, but that comes with the job. Mine certainly didn't.

eucryphia 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My elderly relatives strived to remain useful.

My grandmother-in-law especially enjoyed our visits, engaging her in conversation, she delighted in serving us a lovely hot pot of tea. We would give her a few days notice so she could bake a cake, later she just bought one.

kmijyiyxfbklao 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Sounds like the useful thing to do now is to come up with a way to automate laundry and dishes. Are you doing that?

paulluuk 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thanking of yourself as "redundant" limits your view of a human to that of a machine, and in doing so you are doing humanity a great disservice. I'd recommend reading the Culture series for a vision of a future where AI has essentially taken over and humans can live out their lives as they want instead of as they need to.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

What if you WANT to have a career or a job which is now done exclusively by AGI?

chii 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

There are still blacksmiths today, selling artisanal products. I dont believe it to be any different with the advent of AGI.

What you don't get of course, is the economic benefit of previously.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

If AGI takes my job as a software developer, my career is finished. I don't know what else to do.

Companies won't give a shit about "artisanal" code.

Juliate 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

You don't need "companies". You need enough customers to buy/support your work so that you get a living out of it.

Being a software developer is a _facet_ of your work. You (unconsciously perhaps) do many other things around/with it that the most efficient AI today cannot do alone. And AGI is still far on the horizon, if not a mirage.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Hey we're talking about a future scenario where AGI actually exists and is vastly better at software development than any human, and can do it much cheaper than current developer salaries.

We're talking about science fiction which may become true much sooner than most people expect.

I would be competing with cheap AGI services so it makes no difference whether I am a freelancer or not.

> Being a software developer is a _facet_ of your work. You (unconsciously perhaps) do many other things around/with it

The non-development parts of my job are not interesting at all. If that's gone then my career is finished. I'm done.

chii 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> scenario where AGI actually exists and is vastly better at software development than any human

then humans deservedly should no longer be doing software development, and those who were doing it would necessarily be the economic sacrifices. This has happened to many industries before, and shall continue to happen to others. I don't think there's any necessity to stop it - just ease the transition via taxpayer funded schemes.

However, none of this stops anyone from persuing an artisanal craft - because otherwise, they would be persuing it for economic reasons rather than artistic reasons.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

> then humans deservedly should no longer be doing software development

Then you could argue that humans won't "deserve" to exist when aliens show up with superior military technology. This isn't a matter of technology becoming obsolete. It's a matter of human beings becoming obsolete.

Juliate 4 days ago | parent [-]

No need to call to aliens for that, this happened within human history several times... towards other humans, and towards other species (which some were considered as pest, until it was discovered they were crucial to the ecosystem balance).

That's definitely where the danger of some AI builders is, one more example of how technology _is political_ and the reason it's not so surprising some tech leaders are totally aligned with Trump/Project 2025 (if not funding it).

(all while there is a _real_, _documented_, _non fictional_, _short term_ ubiquitous threat that is global climate change)

SirMaster 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You sound really jaded and close minded to me in your posts. If AI replaces software development, the only reason you are "done" is because you are jaded and close minded and seemingly unwilling to adapt to the world and life.

voidspark 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You are totally misunderstanding the point. I am talking about the hypothetical AGI/ASI scenario where ALL jobs are replaced by machines. Not just software development. The economic value of human labour drops to zero. This is not just about me and my own little career. It would impact everyone.

This is a serious topic that is being discussed and debated at a high level. It is an existential threat to human society. It could be catastrophically disruptive. No one knows how it would play out. There could be severe economic inequality and stratification of society unlike anything we have seen in the past.

SirMaster 3 days ago | parent [-]

IMO there's no point in average people worrying about something like that.

That's like worrying about the Yellowstone supervolcano erupting.

No matter how much you worry and prepare, it's all over, so why worry or prepare?

IMO it's like a doomsday prepper. Sure you may live a little longer in your bunker, but who even wants to live like that for very long?

voidspark 3 days ago | parent [-]

I am actually not worried about my situation. ASI is unlikely to arrive that soon.

HN is a place for nerds to discuss technology and its future impact. Nothing has more disruptive potential than AI.

"Governments worldwide (e.g., US AI Executive Order, UK AI Safety Summit, EU AI Act), international organizations (UN), leading AI researchers (including pioneers like Geoffrey Hinton and Yoshua Bengio who have voiced strong concerns), major tech companies, and dedicated research institutes (like the Future of Life Institute, Machine Intelligence Research Institute, Centre for the Study of Existential Risk) are actively discussing, researching, and debating the implications and safety of advanced AI."

"If ASI concentrates wealth and power in the hands of those who own or control it, while simultaneously rendering most human labor economically valueless, the resulting inequality could dwarf historical examples based on land, capital, or industrial technology ownership. It raises fundamental questions about resource distribution and societal structure in a post-labor world."

3 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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balfirevic 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> What if you WANT to have a career or a job which is now done exclusively by AGI?

> If AGI takes my job as a software developer, my career is finished. I don't know what else to do.

Do you want to have a software developer career for the sake of having a software developer career (because you enjoy it), or are you worried about your livelihood?

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

It's what I've always been interested in doing, and it's how I make a living.

I don't want free money just handed out like UBI. That would be depressing. I also don't want retirement.

Many people don't want to be forced into early retirement.

SirMaster 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Use your imagination a little... There are endless things you can do. I don't understand this mindset. Especially if you are intelligent enough to be a competent software developer, you have the capacity to do a LOT or at least in my experience you probably do.

voidspark 3 days ago | parent [-]

I am using my imagination. I am talking about a future scenario where the value of human labour drops to zero.

ASI. Artificial Super Intelligence. All jobs replaced by machines.

Many people derive a sense of purpose from their hard work, skill mastery, and its contribution to society.

paulluuk 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It depends; if you do that job or career for fun, then keep doing it! If you do that job because you like contributing to society and not because you like the job itself, then find another way to contribute to society.

Even in a scenario where all jobs are taken by AGI (a utopia if we can get rid of capitalism and wealth, but a dystopia if the billionaire class is the only one that benefits), you could do something as profound as raising children, or something as social as organizing music and art festivals.

seqizz 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But there are people who already doing what you are currently doing. Also they do it waaaay better. If this does not make you redundant, why would AI do it?

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

> they do it waaaay better

No they don't. There is a very limited supply of developers who are better than me.

I am talking about a future where we have a practically infinite supply of cheap AGI software developers that are vastly superior to the smartest human being who ever lived.

Juliate 4 days ago | parent [-]

And where do you find the energy technology required for that to happen?

Hint: it's not on the radar, but if you account for several fundamental breakthroughs in energy production, storage and transport, and all that while having positive side-effects on Earth's ecosystem, within the next 50 years.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not talking about current primitive technology with these power hungry LLMs.

The human brain runs on only 0.3 kWh per day. There is much room for optimization for artificial intelligence.

They don't need many super intelligent systems to replace the relatively small number of software developers.

Just build a few nuclear power stations. Cheaper than millions of developer salaries.

Juliate 4 days ago | parent [-]

Totally agree, IF an AGI can fully replace/improve on the work of developers, it's definitely cheaper.

But: 1/ cheaper isn't always affordable either.

2/ who will engineer/maintain/steer AGI once AGI takes the job? once you make that leap, there's no way back, no one to understand the machine that makes the stuff we rely on.

And that circles back, in some way, with the debate about AI-generated art: there's no human component in it, there's no understanding, no feedback loop, no conversation.

voidspark 4 days ago | parent [-]

> who will engineer/maintain/steer AGI once AGI takes the job?

Yeah that's the question. A reduced number of human developers may be privileged to work in these companies.

It's hard to imagine a world with cheap artificial super intelligence. It's like we are introducing a new artificial life form into society, whether it's actually conscious or not.

> debate about AI-generated art

I hope there will always be a majority of people who reject AI generated music.

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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ben_w 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Or retired.

One is a bad future. The other one may or may not be, as per SMBC being philosophy disguised as humour:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/leisure

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/touch-2

(Can't find the one I was after comparing retirement to UBI, but did find two identically scripted haiku jokes).

Juliate 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Art, at this point, is essentially digital,

Essentially? No.

Does digital art reduce analog art in the world? Not even. There’s still more and more, courses, workshops, live performances and physical artefacts.

> and digital is the domain of machines so we can let machines do that now.

Art by machines for machines to understand machines (to the extent they would have a notion of self and of other), fine, do your thing as long as the energy you need does not deprive humans needs.

As for me and many others, life happens in the analog realm, so does art.

tmountain 4 days ago | parent [-]

I go to art museums regularly and look at framed canvas hanging on the walls. It’s an entirely analog experience minus the occasional digital exhibition. I use this experience as an escape from the digital world and hope it stays this way.

Al-Khwarizmi 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't need AI for that. Just come to my house, I can allow you to spend time in analog human experiences like dishes and laundry for free. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Griffinsauce 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Art, at this point, is essentially digital

Are you serious with this?

jsphweid 4 days ago | parent [-]

"essentially" is, regrettably, a misplaced word. I meant "basically" or "generally".

But if the art is expressed as a sequence of bytes/tokens (ex. a song on spotify, a movie on amazon prime, a png, etc.), then it is by definition digital. I think it's reasonable to assume this is how most art is produced and consumed today.

viccis 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is there a point to this other than trolling, or is it legitimate philistinism?

eucryphia 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I enjoy gardening, but use a hedge trimmer. Capital Investment in productivity enhancement so I can manage a larger, more complex garden.

MantisShrimp90 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean I guess In this obtuse, maybe someone's joy In life is doing dishes and that is their art, then idk maybe but not even then.

First, this just misunderstands what is being said here. For most people, chores like the dishes is a menial task that we will be happy for any reduction in time/effort. In addition, dishes and laundry are considered necessary for modern life.

By contrast, art like music and visual mediums is often associated with joy and the creative act of building something out of making art rather than getting a task done.

To misunderstand this contrast is to misunderstand why we automate things in the first place, to minimize the unnecessary toil and maximize human flourishing. This does the opposite frankly.

jsphweid 4 days ago | parent [-]

A nice thing about doing dishes over creating art is that it's something you can work hard in and get a predictable amount of work done which is gratifying. Meanwhile you can stare at a blank sheet of staff paper in frustration for an hour not knowing the best way to evolve your music composition and it's a really bad experience. That's my experience often. Personally, it's not too difficult for me to invert it / humor the opposite. My context is that I got a degree in music composition and also had several jobs washing dishes. It often goes with having a music degree :)

Obviously the original quote deliberately creates an unfair fight in the arena by matching a conventionally dull-sounding analog task such as "washing dishes" with a sophisticated digital task such as making art (digital since LLMs do it, and that's what the complaint is about).

I could also create an unfair fight by saying "I'd rather have machines organize my spreadsheets (boring digital task) so I can have more time to hang out with other humans I love (appealing analog task)."

For me, by inverting it, I've come to realize it's not about art or dishes, but more about analog and digital. If one is partaking in any digital activity, then the trend of machines entering and taking over that space is inevitable. I think humans will revert more towards prioritizing and finding meaning in purely analog endeavors. Human art will shift back to analog. That's just my personal prediction.

Karrot_Kream 4 days ago | parent [-]

I love your perspective here. I don't agree with all of it, but it really made me think.

I do a lot of photography as a semi-amateur hobby (semi because I occasionally get paid but my goal is not to be a professional.) Often when I'm going out shooting in a city, thousands, maybe even millions have observed the same sight I'm seeing. I'm not snapping the first picture of the Hindenburg or the unveiling of the Empire State Building. But it's my unique perspective that makes my art. People like and recognize my pictures because of my personal composition. In general I think most portrait and street photographers have come to terms with this, and an increasing number of landscape and event photographers in the age of smartphones.

With art there's no "right answer", it's the soul found within the work.