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IndianITGuy 8 months ago

I run an IT consultancy and often work in both commercial buildings and private residences across the UK. When it comes to the latter—trust me, the elites (and even the upper-middle class) still have an extraordinary amount of money.

What’s changed is that no one cares about the public sphere anymore. You wouldn’t believe the contrast between Britain’s crumbling high streets and the lavish interiors of some of these homes. I’ve seen marble floors, $10K TVs, $100K kitchens, $150K bathrooms. Home offices decked out with $50K worth of gear. Wine cellars, indoor spas, private gyms—you name it.

Even on the commercial side, it’s wild. It’s not uncommon to walk into a privately-owned or government-owned building and be greeted by a $5 million art piece in the lobby. Then you start looking around and adding up the costs—“they probably spent $10K just on that fancy trim around the doorframe.” Or you notice a particularly heavy door, Google it, and realize it costs $15K per door. Then you start counting the doors—there are thousands. The rabbit hole goes deep, and the amount of wealth becomes staggering. It’s just hidden in plain sight.

But all of this wealth is cloistered. No one’s investing in the public-facing world. There’s a broad cultural resignation—from the elites to the average person: “Why bother fixing the outside world? Just survive the workday and retreat into your private kingdom.” The mindset has shifted toward building personal fortresses rather than shared prosperity.

So yes, Britain feels poor—but it’s not because the money is gone. It’s because it’s been withdrawn from the commons and buried behind closed doors.

d3nj4l 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

I've had very similar experiences in India. Incredibly expensive, well-furnished homes surrounded by streets filled with trash. The people living in there don't even walk outside any more, it's too hot/polluted/dirty for that. They get everything delivered to them or go for work/events in their fancy car.

cpach 8 months ago | parent [-]

Must be incredibly boring to live like that!?

ASalazarMX 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Only the commute, I guess. You constantly go from wealth point to wealth point through a brief poverty scenery.

cpach 8 months ago | parent [-]

To each his own, but I’m not sure I’m thrilled by that prospect.

spwa4 8 months ago | parent [-]

I've been to a lot of places and this is actually how the majority of the world looks. China looks like this. The Philippines looks like this. Turkey looks like this (though the streets are far cleaner than average for 3rd world or even 2nd world). South Africa looks like this. Congo, if you adjust your opinion of what richess is, and what poverty is, down, looks like this.

You can find far, far more luxurious hotels in South Africa or the Philippines than in Switzerland or England.

Some days I think the difference between 1st world and 3rd world is not so much wealth, but the division of wealth.

ZeroTalent 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

boring and depressing if you have any self-awareness. yet India announced they eliminated all poverty recently. I've visited in the last months. It's still the dystopia that it always was.

prawn 8 months ago | parent [-]

I walked into a Mumbai slum 20+ years ago and recently checked on Streetview and other 360 image spots to see how it compared. Still there. How do those get categorise with regard to poverty? Or is/was the poverty-poverty the people sleeping in/around train stations?

ZeroTalent 8 months ago | parent [-]

The criteria for defining extreme poverty are not being adjusted properly.

For example, Grab/Uber rickshaw/tuk-tuk drivers in India may technically earn over $10 a day, but many of them remain homeless because the price of food and rent has risen, and they often support a lot of their family members who have no jobs.

They often sleep on their rickshaws and work more than 20 hours a day, seven days a week, relying on excessive amounts of caffeine and other substances to keep going.

Many of them sleep on their motorcycles or near them on the sidewalk.

shiandow 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are those kitchen and bathroom numbers supposed to be shockingly high? Over here you're not far off just dividing the house price by the number of rooms.

IndianITGuy 8 months ago | parent [-]

I'm just throwing numbers around based on my experience. In the USA, I got a full kitchen remodel done for 25k in a modest, clean, homey kitchen in a $750k home. Then I visit some high-end residences, and their kitchens look like Gordon Ramsay shows up every night to cook a private dinner. It's a stark contrast.

I was once debating between granite countertops that ranged from 5k to 10k—like it was a make-or-break decision for my budget—only to walk into a home where the owners start rambling on about how much of a pain it was to get custom wood countertops imported from Brazil, sourcing the same industrial kitchen range that michelin star cook cooks use, industrial fridge/freezer setups, marble floor tiling, and every single top-of-the-line thing in a kitchen you can possibly think of.

Considering I spent 25k on a modest kitchen with brand new top of the line Samsung appliances in a fairly large house in a "high-income" area, I’d say these folks are spending 4-5 times what I did. And honestly, my guess might be an underestimate. The elites and upper-middle class have DEEP pockets.

dnemmers 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

A 25k ‘full’ kitchen remodel in 750k house in a HCOL area is a VERY good deal. How hands off were you in the process?

antisthenes 8 months ago | parent [-]

If you let yourself get scammed by contractors who charge you double when you have "money" there's no limit to the number you can pay for a kitchen.

Obviously there is more hands-on involved the cheaper you want to go.

Also "full" is probably doing a lot of lifting here. He likely didn't do plumbing for the kitchen from scratch nor electrical.

If you just need to replace cabinets + appliances, there's no reason why you can't get any kitchen done under 30k.

ben_w 8 months ago | parent [-]

I've recently had two kitchens done (my home in Berlin and an apartment I rent out in the UK) for about 10k each. I was completely hands-off for each.

ethbr1 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People underappreciate how much luxury pricing diverges.

When you have a customer base with 1000x average income, you will rapidly find there's a 1000x priced option... even if it's only 2% better than something priced 10x average (or often, simply labelled differently).

philipallstar 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

It's deep pockets often from house price inflation due to demand increases from immigration and price increases from the rise of two-income households. The latter won't continue to happen, although the former will.

korse 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why do you go straight from upper-middle to elite? Is this something peculiar to the UK which I am missing? As a US citizen, I am used to upper-middle class lacking the purchasing power you describe (not that people don't try to compensate via borrowing) and an entire ecosystem of 'rich' that sit between the middle class and the elite.

roryirvine 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Likely a difference in terminology.

"Upper middle class" in the UK comprises the top 5% or so of the population. They tend to be senior professionals or business owners, are likely to be privately educated, will probably speak with a "received pronunciation" (rather than regional) accent, and have significant asset wealth.

"Upper class" is reserved for landed gentry, nobility, etc. They're people who can live off long-standing inherited wealth and don't need jobs or even education (though many still do have them, of course).

reedf1 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Middle class does not translate across the atlantic. Middle in the UK might be what an American calls upper. Upper class in the UK is reserved for royalty.

ASalazarMX 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Also, classical middle class is shrinking. Middle class didn't use to mean people who would become poor after a few months without paychecks. There are people who consider themselves middle class, but whose wealth is actually negative.

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IndianITGuy 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's just my perspective—limited as it might be. I'm from the US, so my general view aligns with yours. However, everything shifts when I fly into a random UK town. You get these shitty streets that give off “Baltimore, might get stabbed” vibes, with infrastructure in complete shambles, and then you step into a townhouse owned by someone making about what I do—and inside, it's a mini-Saudi royal palace.

I’m no economist, but after working closely with many UK clients, I’ve noticed something: the upper-middle class here may not be flush with current cash flow, but they're sitting on a ridiculous amount of generational wealth that's been safely accumulated over the last 200 years within tight-knit family networks. In my view, the elites have both robust current cash flow and deep generational wealth, while the upper-middle class primarily relies on that generational cushion. They might not be buying Bugattis like the elites, but they're still living extremely luxurious, lavish lifestyles. Anyone without that kind of inherited wealth—unless you hit it big with a million-dollar tech idea—is stuck in the rat race, whether you're working at Starbucks or engineering at a tech firm.

The US seems a bit different. Here, there’s more opportunity to generate enough cash flow within one generation to set up the next with “generational” wealth. In the UK, it takes longer—about 3–4 generations—to build that legacy. But once a family in the UK secures this wealth, it tends to provide a relatively stable, luxurious life for the next 2–3 generations. In the US, while you might build wealth in just one generation, it can just as quickly vanish—sometimes within a single generation or even half one—due to medical debt, mismanagement, or economic swings. It takes a structured effort, clear strategy, and a strong individual family culture to preserve wealth in the US. If it’s not properly secured, that wealth ends up transferring to someone else who is setting up their own cycle of generational prosperity.

I also think the UK’s cultural and systemic setup makes it much harder for wealth to move from family networks at the top down to the working class. Over the past 10 years, globally, more wealth has shifted from the working class to the upper-middle and elite tiers. In the UK, that wealth is now entrenched at the top for the next four generations—even if the flow stops today, it’s going to stay that way for another 50 years or so. In the US, although wealth has also moved upward, there’s a genuine chance for it to “expire” at the top within 5-10 years and start cycling back down to the working class. I think this is the major difference in US economics as opposed to much of the world.

That said, who really knows what will happen given today’s global political climate? Everything’s kind of up in the air right now, and we'll have to see how it all settles over the next few years.

korse 8 months ago | parent [-]

Thanks. Explanation much appreciated!

Jensson 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

USA doesn't have nobility like Europe does, nobility was the original definition of upper class.

prawn 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Been several years since I was over there. What are the public spaces like?

Go back to my childhood (Australia) and a playground was a very basic slide, possibly weathered and with minimal regard for safety and no landscaping beside mown lawns. A public plaza would've been pretty austere. Now, either have quite premium fit-outs - high end playgrounds, thoughtful and professional landscaping, etc. The budgets would be huge. And there are still very premium fit-outs in many houses.

jasonm23 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It’s because it’s been withdrawn from the commons and buried behind closed doors.

That happened in the 80s. This is not a new sensation in England, just a worsening one.

senordevnyc 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sounds exactly like Galbraith's concept of "private opulence and public squalor"

splix 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm wondering what should be the right way here. Taking the doorframe trim for £10K.

I see there could be like 3 options: 1) hide wealth / do not spend this money; 2) distribute to economy / i.e. pay a tradesman to curve the frame; 3) donate money to a fund or throw from a balcony to the crowd.

It doesn't seem that 1 cold be helpful to anyone. We see 2 in those examples, but it seem you imply that it's not the best way. So we have the only the 3rd option left, with donations. Is that what is considered as the best option? Is it sustainable in a long term?

gspetr 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Throwing from balconies doesn't work. Pavel Durov tried it in 2012, it quickly turned into a brawl under the balcony. So the one above got bad reputation, being called out by the media for making PR stunts in bad taste, and the ones below might have even had negative ROI, if that money went to pay for medical bills.

poincaredisk 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

I have no idea, but what about investing the money? (yourself into something new, or just into the stock market)

splix 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

I'm sure they do it at the first place. It seems to be p.2 here, but it even less acceptable by many, as it's just "greedy people multiplying their wealth." Speaking of "fixing outside world," I'm not sure why it's the better than paying to a tradesman?

prawn 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Isn't the trim/joinery/etc effectively 'investing' the money into (hopefully) skilled craftspeople? In Australia, the equivalent project might involve using local premium timber instead of imported, or custom cabinetry over imported flat-pack.

euroderf 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wasn't there a famous Brit who declared that there is no such thing as society ? If the commons has more or less been willed out of existence, should its decay surprise ?

hgomersall 8 months ago | parent [-]

As much as I despise what Maggie did, this quote is regularly misused and taken out of context. Her point, which I broadly agree with, is that the idea of hiding behind some notion of "society" is flawed because what that really means is a whole collection of real people doing real things. "Society" doesn't fix things; people fix things. If anything, I take this a call to action for everyone to be far _more_ civic minded. For sure, in the interview she makes some points that I disagree with, and certainly her prescriptions I think miss subtlety, but a hypothetical debate with her based on the "society" interview would not be around the core substance of what she's trying to say.

Whole quote here: https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/106689

TremendousJudge 8 months ago | parent [-]

>because what that really means is a whole collection of real people doing real things

She doesn't just mention real people, she also says "and families" in the same breath, which is the part I always found most strange of the whole argument. So "society" doesn't exist but "families" do? Why stop there, specifically? Aren't families just "individual men an women" as well?

hgomersall 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, she definitely added some political fluff to the point. I think the broader point that she wasn't saying "individualism is great, sod everyone", which is often how its portrayed, still stands.

mike_hearn 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes they are. That's what she meant: society doesn't exist and families/individual people do. The distinction is that you can ask a family or a person to do something and decide if they did it or not. You can't ask "society" to do anything: what does that actually mean? Who does it? Everyone can just point the finger at everyone else.

Thatcher was making this argument because in the 1980s the [British] left was still very Marxist, so they tended to demand extremely expensive things and when challenged as to who will do/pay for that they'd answer with society. It was a form of rhetorical evasion because what they actually meant was "someone else but not me". Thatcher was railing against that tactic by pointing out that there isn't some specific entity with a big wad of cash you can go to called Society and ask them to do something. Society is your neighbours, your friends, your coworkers, your family, it's you and everyone around you. So if you say society should pay, what you actually mean is the people around you should pay but not yourself, without being willing to say so clearly.

Arguably the post-Marx neo-left actually did listen to her and stopped talking like that. You didn't hear people like Tony Blair claim that "society" would pay for their latest ideas. But the old left were never willing to give up the stupid linguistic game playing and reacted by fully stripping her words of context, to try and make it sound like she rejected the idea of bonds between people. Which is not only not what she said, but the conservatism she stood for was all about the primacy of friends/family/workplace/church/social clubs etc, vs the alternative Tony Benn style worldview in which the primary organizing unit of people was either the state or the unions.

ethbr1 8 months ago | parent | next [-]

> Society is your neighbours, your friends, your coworkers, your family, it's you and everyone around you.

That's... incomplete.

Society is the obligations and responsibilities collectively imposed on these people.

It's indicative that part of Thatcher's intent was to remove the obligation of people to each other.

More profitable when choosing to help others is instead at one's discretion...

hgomersall 8 months ago | parent [-]

Really? Does she not say that explicitly?

"It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations, because there is no such thing as an entitlement unless someone has first met an obligation [...]"

She certainly puts the framing as individualistic, but I think she very much understood the obligations are a necessary part of the system.

ethbr1 8 months ago | parent [-]

There's a difference between a government-enforced obligation and a moral one.

The latter has never worked at scale to remind the wealthy that they need to look after the societies which allowed them to create that wealth.

hgomersall 8 months ago | parent [-]

Sure, and a big part of the framing that Thatcher used was to emphasise the obligation of those that might need direct support from society, but ignores the obligations of those that have become wealthy from the implicit support. I think the point you are making, which I agree with, is that the obligations are required everywhere, and should be enforced if not forthcoming.

robocat 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

> someone else but not me

This is the core behind so much popular rhetoric about taxation (the 99%, wealth taxes, supporting individuals ripping off businesses). The selfish motivation where you accuse the people you want to tax of being selfish.

The second part is cutting down the successful - a very popular game down under. Although we do laud our sportspeople.

raffael_de 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> What’s changed is that no one cares about the public sphere anymore.

> So yes, Britain feels poor—but it’s not because the money is gone. It’s because it’s been withdrawn from the commons and buried behind closed doors.

This is not necessarily related. People don't care because the fabric of society is eroded and the essence of what makes a country and a culture is diluted to a point that it is almost non-existant. Those factors are correlated but not causally determined.

dumbledoren 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Its Selfishness... Selfishness that is encouraged, rewarded and enforced by capitalism finally takes its toll and destroys society. Everything is for the maximization of self-gain. Everything is for the individual. Despite the individual being part of the society outside.

anon291 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> But all of this wealth is cloistered. No one’s investing in the public-facing world. There’s a broad cultural resignation—from the elites to the average person: “Why bother fixing the outside world? Just survive the workday and retreat into your private kingdom.” The mindset has shifted toward building personal fortresses rather than shared prosperity.

Because we've been fed a narrative that there's only "one right way" to care for the external world. For example, in my city of Portland, they recently revamped the public library. Was it done to make the beautiful building up to code so that people could enjoy books for a hundred years more until the next renovation?

Oh no... that would have 'exacerbated inequality'. Instead, we removed the books, shortened the bookshelves, and got rid of seating so that homeless men would have a place to walk around drugged-out and not be found masturbating behind tall bookshelves. That was the 'one true way' of using public funds, according to those in charge. Don't disagree or you might get labeled a fascist.

We see this all around the world. Just look at the reaction to Ezra Klein's book 'Abundance'. Such obvious solutions, things we can all agree on (I consider myself a conservative and enjoyed the parts of the book I've read). But if you look at the reaction it's getting, it's the same tired rhetoric. We are not allowed to have nice things. Wanting nice things is apparently chauvinistic, racist, classist, something supremacist, some other -ist, etc.

In the meantime, anyone who has not followed the 'one true path', has basically resigned themselves, and many have become actively resentful of the system writ large.

tim333 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The commons are quite variable. Around where I live in London it's quite nice. I just rode the £18.8bn liz line which in quite jolly. On the other hand out in the sticks it's often less so.

YeGoblynQueenne 8 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's it in a nutshell.

hintymad 8 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote something like below in this book Skin in the Game. It looks to me that there is a lot of inequality and unfairness hidden in the Europe.

"Consider that about ten percent of Americans will spend at least a year in the top one percent and more than half of all Americans will spent a year in the top ten percent[1]. This is visibly not the same for the more static –but nominally more equal –Europe. For instance, only ten percent of the wealthiest five hundred American people or dynasties were so thirty years ago; more than sixty percent of those on the French list were heirs and a third of the richest Europeans were the richest centuries ago. In Florence, it was just revealed that things are really even worse: the same handful of families have kept the wealth for five centuries."

And there is more quoted here: https://medium.com/incerto/inequality-and-skin-in-the-game-d...

Gud 8 months ago | parent [-]

There is a vast difference between the UK and the rest of Europe, in this regard.

Full disclosure, I travel all over Europe for work and in the last 3 years, 1 of them was in the UK. The divide between the rich and poor is incredible.

Further, the only place I’ve seen so many young homeless men on the streets is in the UK. Not seen it anywhere else.