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| ▲ | mapt 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a principal in democracy that there Should Not Be strong institutions that prevent a majority of the population from harming itself with its choices. We balance that against a Supreme Court in the US, but that court is almost uniquely powerful & active in forming policy relative to its place in the rest of the world, and right now, most of it has been appointed by fascists; Ultimately the population will have its say in the long term. Do you want an extra-democratic body who is capable of telling the population "No"? I think such a body (which exists in some system) would obviously be nice right now, but I am a lot less convinced that it would be a net positive in general. If we want to find our way out of this, I suspect a lot of people are going to need to feel directly harmed by this administration, and are going to need to basically erect a strong protest culture out of whole cloth. Something like 5% of the population in the streets can topple an authoritarian regime in the right circumstances, but not the 0.5% we might expect for a "large" protest. | | |
| ▲ | jzb 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | "Do you want an extra-democratic body who is capable of telling the population "No"?" There's value in having speedbumps that keep 51%* of the population from shooting 100% (or 99%) of the population in the collective foot... or in this case, head. The institutions aren't anti-democratic - they were put together by democratic processes, and each speedbump is usually there for a reason. Sometimes a long-forgotten or no longer good reason, and it needs to be dismantled, also by the same type of processes that put it there. Yes, I want people who won't be easily and summarily dismissed for following the law and regulations even when they're not popular. I want regulations and guardrails that can't just be swept aside by an administration that rotates out every four to eight years. (I'm generalizing a lot here, of course...) *Really much less than 51%, given that a large percentage of the population doesn't vote, another percentage of the population's vote is suppressed, and another significant percentage of the population is not yet old enough to vote... | | |
| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >There's value in having speedbumps that keep 51%* of the population from shooting 100% (or 99%) of the population in the collective foot... or in this case, head. That metaphor breaks down here and is not really applicable. If two people are chained to each other at the ankles, they can both plausibly argue that the only way to save their own life is to take that of the other person. Whining "but I'm the good guy, I deserve to cut off his foot and let him be the one to bleed to death" is asinine. The solution here is, of course, to not be chained to the other person irreversibly. But any time that is suggested, we hear a bunch of "We're stronger together, that's crazy talk!" And here we are. 330 million people all chained together, and now people are upset that the other team has the hatchets and is menacingly staring at their ankles. >and another significant percentage of the population is not yet old enough to vote Not sensible enough to vote. Don't leave that part out. | | |
| ▲ | alasarmas 2 days ago | parent [-] | | This isn't 1861, sectionalism isn't strong enough. One part of what's going on here is cities at odds with the countryside, another part is the internet, smartphones, ubiquitous connectivity, filter bubbles. People are physically present in the same locations but they are not eating the same bread and drinking the same water, metaphorically speaking. I recommend looking at this Wikipedia article for a possible best-case scenario: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Gr... |
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| ▲ | michaelt 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the UK, the Prime Minister has a lot less discretionary power, but much more ability to get legislation changed. So when a political question arises like "should we have net neutrality?" the elected politicians decide and pass legislation. That's in contrast to the US, where someone decide the executive was granted discretionary power over net neutrality in 1934, several generations before the net was invented. Then the executive decides there will, then won't, then will, then won't, then will, then won't be net neutrality. | | |
| ▲ | acdha 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Then the executive decides there will, then won't, then will, then won't, then will, then won't be net neutrality. It should be noted that the backdrop here is legislative dysfunction: the congress could have resolved network neutrality at any point but that bogged down for ages. Many of the questions around statutory power look like someone trying to do something under existing rules because they see a problem which isn’t going away but legislative attempts have failed. |
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| ▲ | cryptonector a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > There is a principal in democracy that there Should Not Be strong institutions that prevent a majority of the population from harming itself with its choices. Wrong. Democracy means only majority rule. What you say is true of republics, which the USA is. However no republic can be perfect in this regard, because it's all just human beings. In this case the president is plenipotent within the executive branch, the Congress is in the hands of the same party, and the SCOTUS is largely on the same page, therefore all the institutions in question are not going to stop him unless he does things that are outrageous to the public, keeping in mind that the HN commentariat is a tiny portion of "the public". | | | |
| ▲ | aredox 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is one, it is called a Constitution, and any rules where changes are only accepted by a qualified majority not of 50% but of 66% aka 2/3rds. | |
| ▲ | sul_tasto 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The electoral college was intended to serve this purpose. | | |
| ▲ | ckozlowski 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I really wanted to believe that it would step up to the occasion, but twice now, it didn't. I don't say such lightly. I genuinely believe that up until very recently, all portents of doom aside, none of the prior elected presidents truly threatened the Republic. Not Bush, not Obama, none of them. Trump has been the exception. It the electoral college had been working as intended when it was envisioned by the Founders, it would have said "Yeah, I hear you want Trump, but, no." and voted in someone who might be better suited to implement his (rough) ideas. I'm not completely onboard with the notion of abolishing said college just yet, as I believe that the electoral system prevents a candidate from say, simply winning all of the urban areas, or exploiting some similar demographic divide that would could exist in a pure popular vote system. We're a union of states, not a single monolithic country. And while I might place my bets on a popular vote providing me the results I'd like a majority of the time, I believe broad representation that at least aids towards unity is better than an outright majority. We strive to avoid "tyranny of the majority". I don't have any easy or simple answers as to what might fix all of this. It may not even be something our "system" can fix, but rather just a lesson we as a country have to learn. Let's hope it's not as painful as prior instances. | | |
| ▲ | heylook a day ago | parent [-] | | > I believe that the electoral system prevents a candidate from say, simply winning all of the urban areas, or exploiting some similar demographic divide that would could exist in a pure popular vote system. What about simply winning all of the rural areas? Cause that's literally what happened. |
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| ▲ | mrtesthah 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The purpose of the electoral college was to protect slavery. | | |
| ▲ | p_j_w 2 days ago | parent [-] | | For those who tend to fall for right wing talking points: “There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of the Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to fewest objections.” James Madison |
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| ▲ | throw0101d 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Is it true to say that in practise there are no laws here? If anyone in DOGE breaks the law, can't the President just issue a blanket pardon? For federal laws, yes. If you can find a state-level law that's been violated then he has no jurisdiction to pardeon. Trump himself was charged at the state level twice (and already convicted once): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosecution_of_Donald_Trump_in... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_election_racketeering_... See also the civil case against him for rape: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._Jean_Carroll_v._Donald_J._T... | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 2 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Unless you were in the courtroom and heard the evidence, you don't have enough information to have an opinion. The jury heard the evidence, and made their determination. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi a day ago | parent [-] | | Trump just won a major election. If there was evidence he did something improper people really should bring it up instead of vague claims that he did something, but we don't need to look too closely. Saying there is evidence but only these 12 people need to see it isn't really meeting the necessary standard. What is the evidence here? It looks like 3 friends agree that something happened around 30 years ago and they should now be paid millions of dollars. That, and I'm being blunt here, isn't plausible enough to take seriously. I can point at people who think Trump is a fascist who must be stopped at all costs; he's even been the subject of 2 assassination attempts. The idea that 3 people might make a false change is just too plausible. Particularly in New York. A lot of the lawfare that has been unreasonably targeting Trump is happening there. And if anyone ever accuses me of assaulting them, just saying, I feel a reasonable expectation is that they work out what year it happened. |
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| ▲ | grobbyy 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My experience is that for anyone sufficiently famous and polarizing, there are widespread false allegations. It's hard work to work from primary sources and sort fact from fiction. It's impractical to check everything, do I tend to do deep dives spot checking a small number of things. For readers, I'd suggest the same thing here. Disregard claims on the Internet, or even court rulings, and just look at primary evidence. Pick a small number of issues. I make this statement generically, without prejudice to the outcome here. | | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Pick a small number of issues. I'm not sure what you mean. I generally agree with you — but I think in the case of Trump you have to disregard at least 26 [1] public allegations of rape if you want to give him a pass, blame his fame, or partisanship, or whatever. 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct... | | |
| ▲ | mikeyouse 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Right.. the credulousness of these people is insane. “I can’t believe the guy who said he liked to sneak backstage at the Miss Teen USA pageant and bragged about grabbing women by the pussy would assault someone!” | | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's worth noting that Stormy Daniels' description of her encounter with Trump also amounts to rape. I don't think she ever used the word, but it's clearly what she describes. Ms Daniels said she "blacked out" despite consuming no drugs or alcohol after Mr Trump prevented her from leaving the room by blocking the door. She said she woke up on the bed with her clothes off. "I was staring at the ceiling and didn't know how I got there, I was trying to think about anything other than what was happening there," Ms Daniels testified. Ms Daniels, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, said she did not tell Mr Trump to stop. "I didn't say anything at all," she said and that she left the hotel room quickly afterwards. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-08/stormy-daniels-testif... |
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| ▲ | NoMoreNicksLeft 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >you have to disregard at least 26 [1] public allegations of rape if you want to give him a pass, Allegations mean little, and for celebrities they tend to pile up proportionate to their fame. We live in a society that has absolutely no disincentives for false allegations of rape, and that has only grown more true the last few decades. Instead of disregarding 26 allegations, one has to wonder why anyone would regard them in the first place. Furthermore, for many people, their regard/disregard is highly selective and comes down to the politics of the accused. | | |
| ▲ | JKCalhoun 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Wow, a free pass for celebrities. | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, Trump does agree with you: "When you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything." |
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| ▲ | watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My impression is that any allegation is considered false unless at least 19 women came forward and 3 of them have video evidence. | |
| ▲ | electrondood 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Here's a list of people who are both famous and polarizing, along with their number of credible claims of sexual assault. 1. Elon Musk - 1 2. Donald Trump - 26 3. Kanye West - 0 known 4. Greta Thunberg - 0 known 5. Joe Rogan - 0 known 6. Jordan Peterson - 0 known 7. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez - 0 known 8. Andrew Tate - < 10 9. Vladimir Putin- 0 known 10. Mark Zuckerberg - 0 known The idea that just being famous and polarizing attracts false allegations, is false. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I think your argument is spot on, but there is important context which can be revealed by doing the same list for assassination attempts. Trump is qualitatively different from these other people - it just isn't because he is famous and polarising. And Vladamir Putin (0), seriously? Good luck to anyone who attempts to make a public accusation against him. There will be a fatal fall through a window in their future. He could have raped 200 women and nobody would say a thing. | |
| ▲ | Acrobatic_Road 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There is no incentive to make up allegations against most of those people. But if you make up a false allegation against a presidential candidate, it could cost him the election and move national politics in the direction you favor. How many allegations did Trump have against him before vs. after running for president? | | |
| ▲ | nobankai a day ago | parent [-] | | There is no incentive to make up allegations, period. Lying about sexual assault in court is perjury and jeopardizes victims as much as the defendant. The simpler correlation is that most of the people on that list respect the law and do not consider themselves beyond reproach. Mind you, Tate was fleeing Interpol on human trafficking charges when he was arrested. These men know what they did wrong which is why they lash out when accused instead of respecting due process. | | |
| ▲ | Acrobatic_Road a day ago | parent [-] | | >There is no incentive to make up allegations, period. That's obviously not true. For example, this woman confessed to making up an sexual assault allegation for political purposes: >One of Justice Brett M. Kavanaugh’s accusers admitted this week that she made up her lurid tale of a backseat car rape, saying it “was a tactic” to try to derail the judge’s confirmation to the Supreme Court. https://www.yahoo.com/news/kavanaugh-accuser-admits-she-fabr... https://globalnews.ca/news/4628088/brett-kavanaugh-rape-accu... And we know that at up to 10% of rape accusations are provably false. The real number of fake accusations could well be higher. https://archive.is/x0DEo#selection-915.19-919.1 >Lying about sexual assault in court is perjury and jeopardizes victims as much as the defendant. So what? If I make up an allegation against you, there is little risk to me unless you can PROVE I lied. But if the "evidence" against you is just my word, what can you do with that to establish that I am lying? |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | insane_dreamer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Trump has explicitly said he is above the law: "He who saves the country cannot break the law" is what he posted. He pardoned people who stormed the capital, threatened gov officials, and killed police officers. Pardoning DOGE employees is child's play -- but it would never get that far because the DOJ and FBI have been purged of those not fully subservient to Trump. | | |
| ▲ | redeeman a day ago | parent [-] | | > He pardoned people who stormed the capital you mean "He pardoned people who were guided in by the security staff working the capital building"? | | |
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| ▲ | cryptonector a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, that is always true. It usually doesn't happen. Mainly because DoJ usually doesn't look. Congress can perform oversight and impeach if need be. | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm assuming this is what they're betting on. | |
| ▲ | IncreasePosts 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In that case, can't the next president just illegally imprison Elon or trump or whoever for their entire administration, ignore supreme court rulings or lawsuits or whatever, and then issue themselves a pardon at the end? | | |
| ▲ | aredox 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, and restrict the 2nd amendment by fiat, etc... But Democrats "play nice" and respect the law. Biden could have ordered Trump assassinated as soon as the Supreme Court invented the new interpretation that puts president on a piedestal, but he was never going to do it. | | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent [-] | | But Democrats "play nice" and respect the law. That's the problem with the argument that Republicans need to be careful about setting precedents that Democrats will then also abuse: no Republican believes that any Democratic president will actually do this. In fact, a lot of Republicans probably don't believe that there will ever be another Democratic president. |
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| ▲ | ethagnawl 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Based on last year's Supreme Court rulings and what Trump/DOGE have gotten away with thus far, it'd seem so. However, democrats insist on wearing kid gloves to a chainsaw massacre, so don't count on anything like that (or, more realistically, within a lesser order of magnitude) ever happening. |
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| ▲ | k__ 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don't know, but I read somewhere that the president can't pardon breaks of federal law. | | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's the other way around; the presidential pardoning power is limited to federal offenses. | | | |
| ▲ | sillyfluke 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What I found significant here is that Trump (yesterday) and/or the Whitehouse stated that Elon Musk does not work for Doge and has no authority over it at all, that Elon Musk has no authority regarding anything and is solely an advisor to the president. Of course, in practical terms "in the field" this is obviously not the case. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was Elon's ego that triggered this: that at the end of the day needing a pardon would be an insult and would bruise his ego so he wants to prevent any pathway for him to be charged with a crime. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if the Doge "interns" would need one regardless. | | |
| ▲ | alistairSH 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not just that, but DoJ lawyers are simultaneously (in different court cases) arguing DOGE both is and is not a federal agency. | |
| ▲ | jonstewart 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Cynically, Trump and Musk are using each other. They both want huge swaths of the federal government dismantled—Trump found his whims stymied by laws and regulations and the bureaucrats who abide by them in his first administration, while federal regulations are constraining both Tesla (cars should work and be safe) and Space-X (starships blowing up shouldn’t pollute, Starlink shouldn’t clutter space, etc). Musk is stealing the spotlight. At the appropriate time, Trump can fire him and blame him for overstepping his bounds—I have already seen this talking point privately from GOP operatives. They’ll both have gotten what they wanted, and we’ll all be stuck footing the bill. | | |
| ▲ | j16sdiz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | IMO, this sounds totally like what happened in China. Trump will get his unchallenged power like Xi or Mao did. |
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| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Security clearances are based on laws, such as the ones compiled in Title 50 U.S. Code §3341. | | |
| ▲ | tored 2 days ago | parent [-] | | So if DOGE have security clearances (unclear if the have) then their audit is legal? | | |
| ▲ | throw0101d 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > So if DOGE have security clearances (unclear if the have) then their audit is legal? They're also responsible liable for keeping the data safe, which has already been broken at least once: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43052432 Possibly violating: > Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information— […] * https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798 | | |
| ▲ | tored 2 days ago | parent [-] | | As long as they keep the data safe the audit is legal? | | |
| ▲ | dmix 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | CIGIE has done similar stuff in the past, it was created under George W Bush > continually identifies, reviews, and discusses areas of weakness and vulnerability in Federal programs and operations with respect to fraud, waste, and abuse; > develops plans for coordinated, Government wide activities that address these problems and promote economy and efficiency in Federal programs and operations, including interagency and inter-entity audit, investigation, inspection, and evaluation programs and projects to deal efficiently and effectively with those problems concerning fraud and waste that exceed the capability or jurisdiction of an individual agency or entity; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_Inspectors_Gene... | |
| ▲ | watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is possible to do legal audits of secret data. DOGE is not doing an audit. | |
| ▲ | ttpphd 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | panzagl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Clearance does not allow indiscriminate access, it just means you are theoretically trustable. You still need a reason to access the data, usually negotiated with the data owners, who is legally responsible for protecting the data. DOGE has bypassed all of that to just hoover up whatever they can. | | |
| ▲ | moduspol 2 days ago | parent [-] | | They were hired to, and authorized explicitly by the President to access that data. In writing. That's as valid of a reason as you can get in the executive branch. | | |
| ▲ | panzagl 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Not really, whoever allows access could be prosecuted for failing any of a number of laws and regs for just rolling over so it would come down to a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The proper way to do it would be to work through both the organization's chain of command and send clearances through the security chain. Maybe that's being followed, but given the stories and timelines, I doubt it- Musk's war boys wouldn't even have time to obtain a clearance from scratch 3 weeks into the administration. | | |
| ▲ | moduspol 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The clearances have already been granted [1]. There is no "damned if you do, damned if you don't." The President and agency directory have authorized and ordered it. Career bureaucrats are not legally required to resist their bosses because they disagree with them. [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/memo... | | |
| ▲ | panzagl a day ago | parent [-] | | Anyone who has a clearance has signed numerous statements acknowledging their personal responsibility to protect the information in their care. If you want access, follow the procedures, then that responsibility is fulfilled. And if DOGE posts whatever to some unsecured S3 bucket its on them, not the bureaucrat (well, let's be real, contractor) who let them in. |
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| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | IANAL, but there are other laws governing what DOGE is doing that they are violating, such as transparency laws. |
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