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jplrssn 12 hours ago

Not surprising that an Atlas Shrugged reading entrepreneur dislikes taxation.

But government services cost money, and by other accounts [0] Norway are doing pretty well:

Norway performs well in many dimensions of well-being relative to other countries in the Better Life Index. Norway outperforms the average in jobs, work-life balance, education, health, environmental quality, social connections, civic engagement, safety and life satisfaction.

[0] https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/norway/

jjtheblunt 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Does Norway perform well in various well-being metrics essentially because Norway is extremely oil rich?

(I don't pretend to know the answer, and ask because I don't see how to figure that out)

jplrssn 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's a good question. If that were the case, I would have expected to also see other oil rich countries at the top of those rankings.

thrw42A8N 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Norway is uniquely located among those, though.

vlovich123 10 hours ago | parent [-]

It’s uniqueness is more how they manage their petrol dollars through a government investment fund rather than subsidizing government services directly or giving back the money to buy popular support like you see in Alaska.

mediaman 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, they're just a petrostate. Over half their economy is oil and mining.

currymj 11 hours ago | parent [-]

they separate out oil activities in their national accounts. “Mainland Norway” GDP is also not bad compared to neighboring countries.

although it doesn’t measure indirect effects of oil wealth on other sectors. but still, “petrostate” isn’t really accurate.

SiempreViernes 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Careful, did you pay him the three dollars it costs to quote his text?!

Aeolun 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anyone that gets taxed more than they have money to pay is inclined to dislike that taxation. I completely agree with the wish to not cannibalize hour company before it’s even properly profitable.

They’re ‘unrealized gains’ for a reason.

That said, I also feel there is a way to do this tax properly.

danudey 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> They’re ‘unrealized gains’ for a reason

The bridge that governments are attempting to make is between "you can't tax me on these, they're unrealized gains!" and "I'm going to fund my billionaire lifestyle by borrowing against these unrealized gains."

Maybe tax people on those unrealized gains if they use them as collateral?

bluefirebrand 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Maybe don't allow unrealized gains to be used as collateral for borrowing?

voisin 9 hours ago | parent [-]

I am inclined to agree with your suggestion and agree with OP.

Mr Entrepreneur starts a business with $1,000 of his own capital and manages to grow his stake to $1,000,000. If the only way for him to use the $1,000,000 as collateral for a loan is to sell it and realize the gain, then he doesn’t need the loan anymore and a successful entrepreneur is deprived of ongoing ownership. But by allowing him to borrow on the $1,000,000 and taxing him, he is still able to maintain his share and use a portion of the loan proceeds to pay the new collateral tax. Netting less of the loan proceeds seems preferable for everyone than to force him to sell his stake.

danudey 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is a man not entitled to the unrealized sweat of his brow?

9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
cbmuser 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have lived in Norway for a year and it’s definitely not as bright as you’re painting it.

Rent prices are extremely high and apartments are quite small compared to other European cities.

Alcohol is so expensive, that Norwegians go on alcohol shopping tours to Sweden.

Trains in Oslo don’t run 24 hours, so you have to take long detours with busses at night or pay obnoxiously high rates when taking a cab.

No, Norway is definitely not the paradise you’re trying to make it.

Also, these people that left Norway weren’t against paying taxes. They were against the socialist government trying to rip them off with a completely unfair taxation.

jaredklewis 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

He's not "painting" a picture. He's citing statistics. You've countered with an anecdote.

Of course data is not perfect, and there are often issues with methodology, data quality, or analysis the data. Even so, I usually find data more persuasive than anecdotes.

david38 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Statistics is exactly how people paint. Surely you’ve heard “there’s, damn lies, and statistics”?

vidarh 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Alcohol is so expensive as a choice with broad political support in Norway. Yes, Norwegians like to whine about it, and go to Sweden or Denmark to avoid it, yet Norwegians also keep voting for the parties (almost all) that agree with keeping alcohol taxes high.

Rent is high in large parts because average incomes are high. This is one of the effects of a relatively flat income structure. As someone earning far above average, I'm better off in the UK, while someone on a job below the top ~10% or so would probably have a higher standard of living in Norway.

Not having things run 24/7 is annoying, but a factor of being a country with one of the lowest population densities in the world.

> They were against the socialist government trying to rip them off with a completely unfair taxation.

Nobody forced them to start their businesses. The wealth tax is not new, and has remained in place through both left- and right-wing governments, thought with some swings back and forth in rates.

Aeolun 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Everyone starts a company with the idea it may never apply to them, so why worry about it before it becomes a problem.

Of course, with the leaving tax, they may just move abroad before doing anything.

vidarh 11 hours ago | parent [-]

It was not that it didn't apply to me. I've had shareholdings in Norwegian companies worth well over the deductible several times. The point is that it isn't a problem in practice as long as you're aware of it and plan accordingly. Yes, if you start a company in Norway without a liquid market for your shares, and without understanding the tax implications, you might end up having a bad time of it. If you spend an hour talking to an accountant beforehand, it's just a minor extra cost of doing business.

E.g. at a $10m valuation you'll end up paying <$90k wealth tax after rebates. If your company is valued enough that your shares are worth $10m, you can finance a $90k loan either directly or via your company, and bake it into your funding rounds. Yes, it's an extra drag on your business, but from first-hand experience, preparing for this just isn't a big deal in most instances.

You don't have to like it, and people are free to whine about it, but in reality it's a problem only if you don't know what you're doing.

Aeolun 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You don't have to like it, and people are free to whine about it, but in reality it's a problem only if you don't know what you're doing.

Maybe? Or maybe it's just a PITA that most people don't want to deal with? It's not nice when you company is doing well, and your reward is having to pay a bunch of extra taxes and deal with financing all that somehow.

At least, I find paying income/value-added tax a lot more palatable, since it's always over money you just received, not money you have to conjure into existence somehow.

vidarh 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Of course it's not fun to have to pay. At the same time the vast majority of the wealth tax is paid by a vanishingly small proportion of society that mostly pay extremely little in income tax despite being some of the richest people in the country. It's effectively largely plugging a loophole.

At the same time there is a significant social good in encouraging efficient investment of capital. If someone can't get returns sufficient that the wealth tax is nothing but a minor nuisance, it's better that capital gets distributed elsewhere.

HPsquared 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In accounting terms I guess the tax burden just decreases the NPV of all assets.

elygre 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They left because they didn't want to pay taxes. No monkeying about, they want to be rich and tax free.

dzhiurgis 12 hours ago | parent [-]

How do you pay taxes for something that doesn't exist with money you do not have?

mikrl 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the rationale is that if you have unrealized gains, there is a high likelihood that you are well off, and can therefore be pressured into reifying your economic potential into a resource that the government can appropriate (ie money)

It’s not a straightforward tax like income tax, it’s more of a class based tax that has some aspects in common with income / CG taxes.

It makes sense when you consider that the capital owning class is and was always the most well off, even more so than aristocrats, since the Industrial Revolution anyway.

thrw42A8N 11 hours ago | parent [-]

What a nice way to preserve feudal classes. It'd be just terrible if someone not rich attempted startups.

vidarh 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Having started companies in Norway without being rich at the time, it's not generally remotely a problem. The wealth tax is low, and it only kicks in over a threshold. If you can't afford to have your company pay you enough or lend you money to cover the wealth tax at the point where it starts to become a challenge, then your company is likely a shitty investment.

There can be extreme corner cases where it's a challenge, but it's extremely rare.

mikrl 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t support these kinds of taxes but I think that is also a little hyperbolic.

Poll taxes, and even flat taxes can also be seen as unjust taxes on ‘money you do not have’ when you subtract the cost of life from someone’s income.

This one is novel in the modern era because it only substantially negatively affects capital owners, rather than wage / fixed income earners.

As both capital owner and wage worker though, I just see it as yet another potential headwind… and yes, there are class dynamics at play that go beyond the economy and up into political power and the state.

thrw42A8N 3 hours ago | parent [-]

No, it substantially negatively affects people who don't have any capital. People who do can deal with it.

danudey 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think the issue that these laws are trying to solve (and perhaps not with sufficient nuance) is that the ultra-rich get paid in stock or options, which then go up in value. Those "unrealized gains" aren't taxable (because they're only theoretical at this point), but they're still able to go to the banks and borrow against those gains anyway to fund their lifestyle tax-free.

Obviously you need to be a bit sane about it; I have "unrealized gains" by virtue of having stock options in a company, but while I'm paid well I'm definitely not rich by any stretch. I'm just some dude with stock.

HarryHirsch 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Don't forget that Norway banned Life of Brian and people had to travel to Sweden to watch it.

vidarh 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

While I like to tell that story too (it was supposedly advertised in Sweden as "so funny it was banned in Norway"), it was not technically banned. It was not given a certificate, so it couldn't be shown in public cinemas, due to concern it might breach the blasphemy laws, at a point where Norway was still fairly religious.

It's also the last time that ever happened - the Heathen Society tried repeatedly to provoke the use of the blasphemy paragraph for many years until it was repealed, and kept failing. The paragraph had at that point not actually been invoked since Arnulf Øverland was acquitted in 1933 (after being charged following a speech titled "Christianity, the tenth plague" - "Kristendommen, den tiende landeplage").

SiempreViernes 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not even Swedes are so petty that they keep bringing that up dude. You are better of mentioning they raised the worst terrorist in the Nordics!

HPsquared 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

For a small country with that much oil money, "better than average" is a pretty low standard.