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| ▲ | insane_dreamer 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You're not counting the energy outflows from France to neighboring countries. Also, France gets 70% of its energy from nuclear, not 40%. | | |
| ▲ | moooo99 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Also, France gets 70% of its energy from nuclear, not 40%. No, it gets 70% of its electricity from nuclear. | | |
| ▲ | RandomThoughts3 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Mixing electricity with transport and heating in a single metric is such a dishonest argument you have to be as intellectually bankrupt as an anti-nuclear ecologist to make it. |
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| ▲ | thrance 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think you included transportation in your stats: planes, cars, trucks and boats. The electrical mix in France includes only 8% from fossil fuels, of which 7% come from natural gas. The rest is mostly nuclear, hydroelectric, wind and solar. In that order. France also regularly sells its surplus to neighboring countries. | | |
| ▲ | masklinn 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > France also regularly sells its surplus to neighboring countries. And in order to do that it has pretty massive lines to neighbours meaning it also acts as an exchange platform (for a profit) e.g. if there are strong winds it can buy electricity from an oversupplied german grid and sell it to italy. https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/24h provides live views of the european electricity grids, and France is the only country which is consistently green (and often dark green aka under 50gCO2eq/kWh) without being blessed with enough hydro for most or all of its requirements (as Iceland and Norway are). | | |
| ▲ | elihu 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Interesting to see they have data for Russia now. I think that's new. |
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| ▲ | fsh 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Most countries use way more primary energy for heating and transportation than for electricity generation. It would be disingenuous not to include this. | | |
| ▲ | RandomThoughts3 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It’s fairly disingenuous to mix both actually when they don’t mingle. Especially when you consider that both heating and transportation are going in the direction of using more electricity which is actually favorable to the French choice. |
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| ▲ | realusername 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | France is simultaneously one of the most populated countries in the EU and the of the top transitioned countries, it does make a difference |
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| ▲ | aziaziazi 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What storage are you referring too? I see residential ones in houses but absolutely nothing of state-scale, which is necessary to keep industries and services running. Materials used for current storage technologies are expected to see demand skyrocket. We’re still to see the renewables going further than the residential proof of concept on a society scale. God bless plutonium. | | |
| ▲ | kieranmaine 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The CAISO (California Independent System Operator) grid is a good example of large scale battery use (1). Texas is also seeing a ramp up of battery storage (2). Whilst battery demand will increase it's expected costs will continue to decrease - "Innovation reduces total capital costs of battery storage by up to 40% in the power sector by 2030 in the Stated Policies Scenario"(3) 1. https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2024-11-27
2. https://modoenergy.com/research/ercot-battery-energy-storage...
3. https://www.iea.org/reports/batteries-and-secure-energy-tran... | |
| ▲ | barbazoo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Materials used for current storage technologies are expected to see demand skyrocket. We haven't even specified what kind of storage technology we're talking about yet you already state that "materials used for current storage technologies are expected to see demand skyrocket". Are you referring to batteries? There are countless other technologies to "store" energy. | |
| ▲ | CalRobert 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh… plutonium? I think uranium is the usual choice. Home batteries can be part of a grid level response but this is nascent. | | |
| ▲ | rsynnott 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | France, unusually, actually does, or at least did, use significant amounts of plutonium (a combo of decommissioned weapons and nuclear reprocessing output) in nuclear energy generation, but yeah, primarily uranium. |
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| ▲ | kergonath 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | New renewable installations are getting cheaper, but are still far from being numerous enough to overcome their terrible load factor and enable switching off some baseline production plants. And storage at a grid level is pretty much inexistant, except for a couple of pumped hydro plants. There is a significant mismatch between reality and the kind of headlines we see in tech-focused media. These hype future products as if they were already widely available, which creates a false idea of the actual situation in the real world. | | |
| ▲ | Symbiote 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Britain has switched off its coal plants. At least some of that is surely because of renewable power, mostly wind. | | |
| ▲ | p_l 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | And because solar and wind power boost sales of gas turbine power plants that can spin fast enough to react for the wind and solar instability |
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| ▲ | realusername 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The result speaks for themselves, Germany still hasn't reached France 90s levels of emissions. | | |
| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes it has: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co2-intensity?tab=chart&t... | |
| ▲ | anton96 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have no clew how come the difference on what's usually said on this forum and the situation in Europe.My only understanding is that the US as whole is more sunny that gives a better ratio solar panel and produced electricity. Maybe also it's a provider thing ? From country to country, you can always have things that seem randomly more expensive. Germany is more renewable but more expensive than France, is it because of their national company is benefiting citizen properly or is it because the remaining gas part drives up the cost ? | | |
| ▲ | masklinn 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Germany is more renewable but more expensive than France No, germany is more renewable but it's also more coal, any time there's no wind the coal plants start up. And they burn lignite (because that's what in germany e.g. that's what the Baggers strip mine). As a consequence, Germany's electricity emissions are absolute garbage: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/DE/12mo It's not as bad as Poland which basically runs entirely off of coal, but it's absolutely at the bottom of the european barrel. Also electricity storage still isn't much of a thing (and while germany has two pumped hydro station they have very little capacity), so in periods of high winds germany actually pays its neighbours to take electricity off its grid so it doesn't collapse (at this point it has hundreds of hours of negative spot prices every year). Which is getting problematic because increase in wind generation in said neighbours means the issue is spreading as they too need to get rid of their wind production at those times. | | |
| ▲ | qayxc 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > No, germany is more renewable but it's also more coal, any time there's no wind the coal plants start up. Hm. The actual facts say otherwise, though: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris... So number go DOWN, not up, is what I'm seeing. | | |
| ▲ | masklinn 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Hm. The actual facts say otherwise They don't. > So number go DOWN, not up, is what I'm seeing. The comment I replied to is comparing germany to france. The map I linked literally tells you that in 2024 Germany generated 370g CO2 equivalent per kWh, where France generated 32, that's an objective number you can straight up read. Yes Germany is 58% renewable versus France's 28 (something the map also tells you), but then 30% are gas and especially coal, the link you provide agrees with that. Coal is insanely polluting, especially because Germany mainly uses lignite which is the least energy rich coal (so even more emissions for the same production), coal represents >3/4th of its emissions. Meanwhile gas is a minor component of france's electricity mix (pretty much just peaking plants and a few combined cycle district heating plants) and coal is a rounding error. |
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| ▲ | thrance 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Germany may use more renewables in volume, but it is absolutely dirtier than in France. Their electrical mix makes use of lots of natural gas and lignite coal, the worst kind, both expensive and very dirty. | | |
| ▲ | qayxc 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Compare to the PAST, not the present! As you can see, the trend is downwards and steadily at that: https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris... Rome wasn't built in a day and I find it hilarious to advocate for nuclear power instead, if the average construction time (not even taking into account the prior mountain of bureaucracy) is over a decade. Not a single nuclear power plant built in past 15 years in Europe has been on time or on budget. Not even close. | | |
| ▲ | masklinn 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > As you can see, the trend is downwards and steadily at that Lignite numbers: 2019: 114TWh, 18.7% 2020: 92TWh, 16% 2021: 110TWh, 18.8% 2022: 116TWh, 20% 2023: 88TWh, 17% I've seen steadier terminal alcoholics. | |
| ▲ | thrance 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Strategically speaking, Europe lacks the natural resources to build renewable, wind turbines and solar panels have to be imported, most of them from Asia. Nuclear is still a bit cheaper per Watt and less carbon intensive, as it involves less infrastructure, logistics and batteries overall. It's also somewhat more reliable, as it doesn't depend on sun or wind (the former of which France often lacks). Also, I am hopeful that nuclear power plant construction delays will only improve in the near future, as Europe rebuilds its expertise in nuclear engineering, which it lost after the past decades of anti-nuclear waves. Finally, I don't see fossil fuel usage going down much in Germany in the link you gave, if at all. Which is the only thing that matters, ecologically speaking. |
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| ▲ | pydry 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Energiewende didnt start in 1973, it was first authorized in late 2010. France's nuclear program was also very, very expensive: https://www.i-sis.org.uk/The_True_Costs_of_French_Nuclear_Po... | | |
| ▲ | kergonath 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can say whatever you want when discussion the cost of nuclear in France because of the structure of its nuclear industry. Part of it comes from the government’s budget, so depending on your point of view it can be accounted for differently. Then, there are externalities (pollution, greenhouse gases, etc). And then there are strategic aspects and associated costs. The alternative in the 1970s was skyrocketing oil, which is much more costly at the planet’s level, and was on track to be much more costly at the country’s level as well. And in the meantime, consumers got reasonably cheap and clean electricity for decades. Skimming your source, I would not trust it very much. | | |
| ▲ | pydry 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >The alternative in the 1970s was skyrocketing oil They imported and still import just as much oil as anyone else. | | |
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