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ALittleLight 7 months ago

Deeply disappointed by the comments replying to this. I would reply to each individually, but feel like I'd get throttled by hackernews, so I'll just reply to everyone here.

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shepherdjerred writes that this is unlikely because doctors want what is best for their patients and would notice a cure were it available.

This is kind of true. Some doctors do know about and prescribe vitamin c with typical therapy. Here is an umbrella review of hundreds of such cases documenting positive results from using vitamin C.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8812486/

The issue is not whether doctors will prescribe it - I expect anyone could ask their doctor for it. Vitamin C is safe, well tolerated, and shown to mitigate symptoms of chemotherapy. Doctors can and do prescribe it.

The issue is why an apparently promising therapy isn't getting better testing to establish whether or not it is effective despite it being known for decades.

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adamredwoods writes that while his wife was still alive people in her group tried it.

I'd love to know more - especially type of cancer and whether the vitamin c was administered orally (no effect expected) or by IV (depending on type of cancer possible effect expected) and at what dosage.

Here's a randomized controlled trial showing substantial benefits of high dose IV vitamin C for patients with advanced pancreatic cancer - they live longer, the cancer progresses slower, and their quality of life is generally better.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39369582/

Adam goes on to suggest I should do the funding myself if I think there is a miracle cure here.

There are a couple ideas here. If I or a loved one ever develop cancer - then of course (depending on type of cancer) I would take high dose IV vitamin C, along with similar therapies that are well established as safe and potentially useful.

As far as "Doing the research myself" - honestly, I might. My path would be to construct a website compiling the research, explaining why people with cancer should try this, explaining how you can get your doctor to prescribe it to you (or, since you don't need a prescription to take vitamin c, how you can DIY), and have functionality to support people registering that they are a cancer patient who has decided to take vitamin c (or not) and give updates.

The hope with the website would be that it could compile enough raw data to become compelling to medical professionals.

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Panzer04 asks "if the therapy works if it's as trivial and simple as you say" - why isn't it being done?

Vitamin C is sometimes used. That's why we have hundreds of case studies and, in some cases, randomized controlled trials and other experiments documenting its use and efficacy.

My comments here aren't based on what I say or think - my original source was an article explaining the research on cancer.gov. Vitamin C (again: high dose and IV administered) is known to have potential benefits for cancer patients.

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cyberax says "Sigh. Vitamin C quackery again" and then offers a partial explanation of the mechanism for how vitamin C causes cell death in cancer cells - which is better explained in the link I originally provided.

cyberax then claims, without evidence, that cancer cells quickly evolve resistance to it. I don't believe there is any such evidence, having read several papers on this and never seeing it mentioned - nor, by my understanding, is it plausible that cancer cells could fundamentally change how they work to get immunity to this. Perhaps I'm wrong though and cyberax could supply some evidence.

I notice in the replies to cyberax pfdietz says "There is evidence that high doses of antioxidants can make cancer worse" - and then links 2 papers exploring the use of vitamin E as a cancer treatment. Vitamin E, despite sharing quite a few letters with Vitamin C, is a different thing.

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dennis_jeeves2 writes that "Linus Pauling (of the Nobel Laureate fame) working along with some physicians did do 'rigorous' research on it".

This is not correct and explained in the first few paragraphs of my original link. Linus Pauling used orally administered vitamin C which results in weaker blood concentrations and therefore less impact on cancer. The modern method uses IV administered high dose Vitamin C (which I was careful to write in my comment).

While Pauling's method shows little effect in randomized controlled trials, high dose IV Vitamin C does show benefits.

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insane_dreamer writes that "Medical trials to prove its safety in human subjects -- pretty essential -- is a lengthy, multi-stage process that is extremely expensive to carry out."

Pretty meaningless comment. The safety of vitamin C is already well established.

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pjc50 also cites Linus Pauling - which, again, is explained in the first couple paragraphs of the link I originally posted. High dose orally administered vitamin C doesn't work - there are limits on how much you can increase blood concentration through oral administration, so most of the high dose is lost.

That's why, as explained in my original comment/link, the modern protocol uses IV administered vitamin C.

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alphan0n quotes an XKCD strip saying "Bullets can induce cell death in a wide variety of cancers as well."

A bad comment because the tests I've been linked to have been in vivo, and my original link explains why this kills cancer cells and not healthy cells.

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That's my review of the comments. I would characterize them as exceptionally uninformed - which is odd. Why would people feel the need to comment on a subject they don't know about and simultaneously refuse to read the outline I originally linked which answers all the questions and criticisms posted here?

southernplaces7 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

This is what I call a cogent, measured and robust rebuttal to several opposing viewpoints. I don't have much to add as a response of my own on the specifics but just want to mention that what your comment tacitly points out repeatedly is very common in the comments on this site, for many subjects and especially those that seem to provoke a certain popular hive-mind response:

People writing completely half-baked, often deeply ignorant opinions on complex, nuanced subjects out of mostly emotional disdain, but phrasing their responses in such a way as to easily fool someone who doesn't know said subject well that they at all know what they're talking about and are thus arguing rationally.

mpnagle 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Hi hi.

You may be interested in the VITALITY study out of China from 2022. 400+ people given FOLFOX + Avastin (standard of care, first line for colorectal cancer) vs FOLFOX + Avastin + high dose Vit C.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35929990/

Roughly showed no change for the overall population, but a significant increase in progression free survival for folks with RAS mutations.

As someone with a stage 4 colorectal cancer with a RAS mutation, this is interesting to me!

ALittleLight 7 months ago | parent [-]

Hey.

Sorry about your diagnosis.

Thanks for sharing. This is an interesting, though somewhat disappointing, paper.

One thing I didn't get while reading it was the specific blood concentration achieved. I noticed they mentioned 12 rounds with 3 infusion days and 1.5g/kg. I'm assuming they injected that amount daily.

I noticed they injected over a period of 3 hours. To my knowledge the half life of vitamin c in blood is only 2 hours. I wonder if the concentration of vitamin c ever got sufficiently high to induce apoptosis.

At IV clinics near me they offer 75g bags of vitamin c on the website that are administered over an hour. I bet you could go back to back and get a higher concentration. In the same trip I wonder if you could get something fun - an IV clinic near me offers a nootropic, methylene blue, might charge you up for a day of studying cancer treatments.

One final idea I've had, not sure how useful it is to you, is that you can an at home ultrasound for a few thousand dollars. You should be able to use it to see your intestines and the tumors growing inside. You could use this to monitor your own treatment - i.e. take daily pictures and examine before and after vitamin c therapy, to see if it does anything.

Best of luck to you. If you want to bounce ideas for DIY cancer treatments off of anyone let me know and we can exchange emails.

mpnagle 7 months ago | parent [-]

I'd love to be in touch. I don't see your email in your profile. I'm mpnagle at gmail dot com. Thank you!