> From our Sufi perspective, the Hadiths are a lot of game of telephone.

Devaluing ahadith is a minority position in Sufism. The transmission of authentic hadith is not dissimilar to the transmission of the Quran.

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MrMcCall 7 months ago | parent [-]

Compassion has always been the minority position for all human beings, regardless of religiosity. That's why the world is the way it is. For most people, selfishness for their group is the reason they claim any religious affiliation whatsoever.

The Quran says, "Do not break into sects." And yet, Sunnis and Shiites are at each other's throats.

The sects that the Quran are referring to, however, are any sects amongh human beings. We are one human race, and we are to love each other regardless of our culture of origin. And we are to defend the innocent and help the poor, irrespective of which side either claim as their own.

And, no, the hadith do not have the same purity as the Quran, although the interpretations of the Quran do not have any guarantees either.

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handfuloflight 7 months ago | parent [-]

I did not say the hadith have the same purity as the Quran, that being an argument with nebulous and undefined terms, we don't know what "purity" means here.

Rather I said it has similar methods of transmission, that being oral transmission. The same groups of people who transmitted ahadith also transmitted the Quran. Doubting their transmission in one instance puts doubt on the other. Yes hadith have been forged but there is a whole science developed and employed to grade their veracity, the veracity of which if rejected, especially in the case of mass transmission also rejects the veracity of Quranic transmission which is a tawatur (mass) transmission.

> although the interpretations of the Quran do not have any guarantees either.

Then that applies to your own interpretations as well. Quran 49:13 contradicts your broad understanding of the meaning of sects as does the concept of 'ummah' which appears 6 times in the Quran. Distinctions among human beings is ordained from above and thus distinctions alone cannot constitute error which is what I am reading from your understanding of what sects mean.

I don't understand what the point of making that argument is, putting the Sunnis and Shiis at odds with each other and then invoking the term Sufi. Your assessment doesn't add up, with all due respect, unless your claim is that your Sufism is the one true Islam. That just goes back to reinforcing sects.

Moreover, Sufism historically developed within the framework of Sunni Islam, with most major turuq operating within Sunni legal schools and their founders being prominent Sunni scholars. So invoking Sufism as somehow transcending or negating these divisions misunderstands its historical development and position within Islamic tradition.

And for the record, I am initiated with a Sufi tariqa.

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MrMcCall 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

Transmitting the written-in-arabic Quran is different than copying hadith. It carries a different level of purity. That doesn't mean that all hadith are wrong, but the key is that if there is a discrepency between hadith and Quran, then the Quran is the authoratative source.

And no where in the Quran does it say to read hadith. That would be absurd, because the Quran contains everything.

If you want to get to the heart of the matter, go to the source at mihr dot com.

Our masjid/camii never even mentioned the words Sunni or Shiite. I still don't know which I and my family are, though it's been over 20 years since my repentence.

Do you know what Hidayat is? It is in the first ayat of Baqarah, and is the meaning of the first Beatitude, and is what the Quran is, and is the single most important concept in life and, therefore, the Quran.

And, yes, Sufism is the truest form of Islam, for we understand that love is the sole purpose of religion, even when and especially when dealing with evil-minded folks. Just remember that calling oneself something is a lot different than what one actually is. There are a lot of people calling themselves a "man of God" who are far away from Its Will to Love.

The Greatest Command (the Gospels being from God, too) is to "Love God with all your being, and then to love your neighbor as yourself." No form of religion that disrespects that command is living in the light of God's Truth. That's why the Sunnis and Shiites are warring while the Quran states explicitly that breaking into sects is prohibited. This is because hypocrisy and ignorance are but two of the 19 vices of the human heart that we must overcome to become fully submitted to the Divine Will.

God's judgement always looks into our heart, because that's where the truth is found. You should be more humble and respectful and open to learning new truths, because no one ever traverses the fullness of what can be known in one lifetime.

Learn about Hidayat, the nefs and the Ruh, and how love is all that really matters, in all our doings. I have given you the link to the truth of love and the Quran and how to navigate this life. Peace be with you. I love you. I am at your service.

	▲	handfuloflight 7 months ago \| parent [-]
		> And no where in the Quran does it say to read hadith. That would be absurd, because the Quran contains everything. Quran 24:54 Say, “Obey Allah and obey the Messenger. But if you turn away, then he is only responsible for his duty1 and you are responsible for yours.2 And if you obey him, you will be ˹rightly˺ guided. The Messenger’s duty is only to deliver ˹the message˺ clearly.” How do you plan on obeying the Messenger, upon him be peace, if you devalue the importance of his words to your spirituality? Quran 2:151 Since We have sent you a messenger from among yourselves—reciting to you Our revelations, purifying you, teaching you the Book and wisdom, and teaching you what you never knew. The Kitab and Hikma are two distinct concepts in this verse. If they were one and the same, it would be redundant for God to mention them that way. Muslims since the beginning have understood Hikma to be the Messenger's application of the Kitab, termed his Sunnah. How do you plan on knowing his application of the Book if you devalue the importance of his Sunnah, which you cannot know without ahadith?

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noufalibrahim 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

> Moreover, Sufism historically developed within the framework of Sunni Islam, with most major turuq operating within Sunni legal schools and their founders being prominent Sunni scholars. So invoking Sufism as somehow transcending or negating these divisions misunderstands its historical development and position within Islamic tradition.

That's how the turuq and everything else around it originated and has been for the majority of Islamic history. A modern "modern" meaning of the term sufi is not particularly Islamic and ignores most of Islamic orthrodoxy. It exists but it doesn't have much in common with Islam except the name "sufi".

	▲	handfuloflight 7 months ago \| parent [-]
		Yes, terms can be co-opted outside of their origins. That's irrelevant to this discussion, my interlocutor takes the Quran to be revelation from God, as per Islamic orthodoxy. That is, the vast majority of Sufis since the birth of Islam have been Sunni Muslims.