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quotemstr a day ago

Rust's error handling evolution is hilarious. In the beginning, the language designers threw out exceptions --- mostly, I think, because Go was fashionable at the time. Then, slowly, Rust evolved various forms of syntactic sugar that transformed its explicit error returns into something reminiscent of exceptions.

Once every return is a Result, every call a ?, and every error a yeet, what's the difference between your program and one with exceptions except the Result program being syntactically noisy and full of footguns?

Better for a language to be exceptional from the start. Most code can fail, so fallibility should be the default. The proper response to failure is usually propagating it up the stack, so that should be the default too.

What do you get? Exceptions.

chrismorgan a day ago | parent | next [-]

One practical benefit of Rust’s approach that hasn’t been emphasised enough yet is the consequences of Option<T> and Result<T, E> being just values, same as anything else.

It means you can use things like result.map_err(|e| …) to transform an error from one type to another. (Though if there’s a suitable From conversion, and you’re going to return it, you can just write ?.)

It means you can use option.ok_or(error) or option.ok_or_else(|| error) to convert a Some(T) into an Ok(T) and a None into an Err(E).

It means you can .collect() an iterator of Result<T, E> into a Vec<Result<T, E>>, or (one of the more spectacular examples) a Result<Vec<T>, E> which is either Ok(items) or Err(first_error).

It’s rather like I found expression-orientation, when I came to Rust from Python: at first I thought it a gimmick that didn’t actually change much, just let you omit the `return` keyword or so. But now, I’m always disappointed when I work in Python or JavaScript because statement-orientation is so limiting, and so much worse.¹ Similarly, from the outside you might not see the differences between exceptions and Rust-style Result-and-? handling, but I assure you, if you lean into it, it’s hard to go back.

—⁂—

¹ I still kinda like Python, but it really painted itself into a corner, and I’ve become convinced that it chose the wrong corner in various important ways, ways that made total sense at the time, but our understanding of programming and software engineering has improved and no new general-purpose language should make such choices any more. It’s local-maximum sort of stuff.

quotemstr a day ago | parent [-]

Exceptions are values in C++, Java, and Python too. They're just values you throw. You can program these values.

As usual, I find that opposition to exceptions is rooted in a misunderstanding of what exceptions really are

chrismorgan a day ago | parent [-]

Exceptions are values, but normal-value-or-exception (which is what Result<T, E> is) isn’t a value. Review my remarks about map_err, ok_or, &c. with the understanding that Result is handling both branches of the control flow, and you can work with both together, and you might be able to see it a bit more. Try looking at real code bases using these things, with things like heavily method-chained APIs (popular in JS, but exceptions ruin the entire thing, so such APIs in JS tend to just drop errors!). And try to imagine how the collect() forms I described could work, in an exceptions world: it can’t, elegantly; not in the slightest.

Perhaps this also might be clearer: the fuss is not about the errors themselves being values, but about the entire error handling system being just values.

maleldil a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> what's the difference between your program and one with exceptions

Because errors as values are explicit. You're not forced to use ? everywhere; you can still process errors however you like, or return them directly to the calling function so they deal with it. They're not separate control flow like exceptions, and they're not a mess like Go's.

quotemstr a day ago | parent [-]

No, because you end up with a function coloring problem that way. A function that returns something other than Result has to either call only infallible code or panic on error, and since something can go wrong in most code, the whole codebase converges as time goes to infinity on having Result everywhere.

Yeah, yeah, you can say it's explicit and you can handle it how you want and so on, but the overall effect is just a noisy spelling of exceptions with more runtime overhead and fewer features.

dwattttt a day ago | parent | next [-]

I very much care about whether a function can fail or not, and I encourage all the function colouring needed to convey that.

funcDropShadow a day ago | parent [-]

As almost always, we programmers / software developers / engineers, forget to state our assumptions.

In closed-world, system-software, or low-level software you want to have your kind of knowledge about everything you call. Even more: can it block?

In open-world, business-software, or high-level software it is often impossible or impractical to know all the ways in which a function or method can fail. What you need then, is a broad classification of errors or exception in the following two dimensions: 1. transient or permanent, 2. domain or technical. Those four categories are most of the time enough to know whether to return a 4xx or 5xx error or to retry in a moment or to write something into a log where a human will find it. Here, unchecked exceptions are hugely beneficial. Coincidentally, that is the domain of most Java software.

Of course, these two groups of software systems are not distinct, there is a grey area in the middle.

maleldil 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Monadic error handling (such as Rust's) is a good compromise because it allows you to handle errors precisely when you want to _and_ bubble them up with minor boilerplate when you don't. You can even add context without unwrapping the whole thing.

That's why it's often considered one of the better approaches: it has both the "errors as values" benefits (encoding errors in the type system) and avoids many of its problems (verbosity when you just want to bubble up).

Too a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think your conclusion is on the right track. Syntax sugar propagating results is in a way equivalent to exceptions. What you are missing it isn’t just equivalent to ordinary exceptions. It’s more equivalent to checked exceptions. A very powerful concept, that unfortunately got a bad rap, because the most widespread implementation of it (Java) was unreasonably verbose to use in practice. You might claim Rust is still too verbose and I don’t disagree with that, it’s a big improvement from Java at least, while at the same time providing even more safety nets.

jll29 20 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, Java is too verbose, but Kotlins cleaned up much of that boilerplate and runs on the same VM.

I'd be curious to see examples for where you think Rust is still to verbose.

maleldil 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You misunderstood. They meant that Java's checked exceptions are very verbose and that Rust's approach to errors is similar. While Rust's approach is less verbose, it's still more verbose than "regular" (unchecked exceptions).

Kotlin isn't relevant here because all exceptions are unchecked.

high_na_euv 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Function coloring problem"

Function coloring isnt a problem, it is just approach

sunshowers a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Function "coloring" is good! It's not a problem here and it's overblown as a problem in general. If something fails recoverably then it should be indicated as such.

pyrale a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> A function that returns something other than Result has to either call only infallible code or panic on error

...Or solve the problem. A library function that can be a source of issues and can't fix these issues locally should simply not be returning something that is not a result in that paradigm.

> since something can go wrong in most code

That is not my experience. Separating e.g. business logic which can be described cleanly and e.g. API calls which don't is a clear improvement of a codebase.

> the whole codebase converges as time goes to infinity on having Result everywhere.

As I said previously, it is pretty easy to pipe a result value into a function that requires a non-result as input. This means your pure functions don't need to be colored.

quotemstr a day ago | parent [-]

> Or solve the problem. A library function that can be a source of issues and can't fix these issues locally should simply not be returning something that is not a result in that paradigm.

People "solve" this problem by swallowing errors (if you're lucky, logging them) or by just panicking. It's the same problem that checked exceptions in Java have: the error type being part of the signature constrains implementation flexibility.

ViewTrick1002 a day ago | parent [-]

In my experience an unwrap, expect or panicking function is a direct comment in code review and won’t be merged without a reason explaining why panicking is acceptable.

zozbot234 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The '?' operator is the opposite of a footgun. The whole point of it is to be very explicit that the function call can potentially fail, in which case the error is propagated back to the caller. You can always choose to do something different by using Rust's extensive facilities for handling "Result" types instead of, or in addition to, using '?'.

pwdisswordfishz a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In most languages with exceptions:

• they may propagate automatically from any point in code, potentially breaking atomicity invariants and preventing forward progress, and have to be caught to be transformed or wrapped – Result requires an explicit operator for propagation and enables restoring invariants and transforming the error before it is propagated.

• they are an implicit side-channel treated in the type system like an afterthought and at best opt-out (e.g. "noexcept") – Result is opt-in, visible in the return type, and a regular type like any other, so improvements to type system machinery apply to Result automatically.

• try…catch is a non-expression statement, which means errors often cannot be pinpointed to a particular sub-expression – Result is a value like any other, and can be manipulated by match expressions in the exact place you obtain it.

Sure, if you syntactically transform code in an exception-based language into Rust you won’t see a difference – but the point is to avoid structuring the code that way in the first place.

quotemstr a day ago | parent [-]

> they may propagate automatically from any point in code, potentially breaking atomicity invariants and preventing forward progress

A failure can propagate in the same circumstances in a Rust program. First, Rust has panics, which are exceptions. Second, if any function you call returns Result, and if propagate any error to your caller with ?, you have the same from-anywhere control flow you're complaining about above.

Programmers who can't maintain invariants in exceptional code can't maintain them at all.

> try…catch is a non-expression statement,

That's a language design choice. Some languages, like Common Lisp, have a catch that's also an expression. So what?

> they are an implicit side-channel treated in the type system like an afterthought an

Non-specific criticism. If your complaint is that exceptions don't appear in function signatures, you can design a language in which they do. The mechanism is called "checked exceptions"

Amazing to me that the same people will laud Result because it lifts errors into signatures in Rust but hate checked exceptions because they lift errors into signatures in Java.

Besides, in the real world, junior Rust programmers (and some senior ones who should be ashamed of themselves) just .unwrap().unwrap().unwrap(). I can abort on error in C too, LOL.

Ygg2 20 hours ago | parent [-]

> A failure can propagate in the same circumstances in a Rust program.

What do you consider failure? A result or a panic? Those are worlds apart.

> First, Rust has panics, which are exceptions.

That's not how exceptions work in Java. Exceptions are meant to be caught (albeit rarely). Panics are meant to crash your program. They represent a violation of invariants that uphold the Safety checks.

Only in extreme cases (iirc Linux kernel maintainers) was there a push to be able to either "catch panics" or offer a fallible version of many Rust operations.

The Rust version of Java Exceptions are Results. And they are "checked" by default. That said, Exceptions in Java are huge, require gathering info and slow as molases compared to returning a value (granted you can do some smelly things like raising static exceptions)[1].

[1] https://shipilev.net/blog/2014/exceptional-performance/

> Non-specific criticism. If your complaint is that exceptions don't appear in function signatures, you can design a language in which they do. The mechanism is called "checked exceptions"

And everyone hates checked exceptions. Because rather than having a nice pipe that encapsulates errors like Result, you list every minute Exception possible, which, if we followed the mantra of "every exception is a checked exception" would make, for example, Java signatures into an epic rivaling Iliad.

> Besides, in the real world, junior Rust programmers (and some senior ones who should be ashamed of themselves) just .unwrap().unwrap().unwrap().

If this is a game who can write worse code, you'll never find Java wanting. As a senior Java dev, I've seen things... Drinking helps, but the horrors remain.

mottalli a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Honest question: syntactically noisy as opposed to what? In the context of this post, which is a critique of Go as a programming language, for me this is orders of magnitude better than the "if err != nil {" approach of Go.

pyrale a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not sure why you bring up Rust here, plenty of libs/languages use the Result pattern.

Your explanation of what bothers you with results seems to be focused on one specific way of handling the result, and not very clear on what the issue is exactly.

> what's the difference between your program and one with exceptions

Sometimes, in a language where performance matters, you want an error to be handled as an exception, there's nothing wrong with having that option.

In other languages (e.g. Elm), using the same Result pattern would not give you that option, and force you to resolve the failure without ending the program, because the language's design goals are different (i.e. avoiding in-browser app crash is more important than performance).

> syntactically noisy

Yeah setting up semantics to make users aware of the potential failure and giving them options to solve them requires some syntax.

In the context of a discussion about golang, which also requires a specific pattern of code to explicitly handle failures, I'm not sure what's your point here.

> full of footguns

I fail to see where there's a footgun here? Result forces you to acknowledge errors, which Go doesn't. That's the opposite of a footgun.

sunshowers a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The big difference is API stability, one of the primary focuses of Rust.

Ygg2 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Once every return is a Result, every call a ?, and every error a yeet

The Try operator (`?`) is just a syntax sugar for return. You are free to ignore it. Just write the nested return. People like it for succinctness.

Yeet? I don't understand, do you mean the unstable operator? Rust doesn't have errors either.

> what's the difference between your program and one with exceptions except the Result program being syntactically noisy and full of footguns?

Exceptions keep the stacktrace, and have to be caught. They behave similar to panics. If panics were heavy and could be caught.

Rust errors aren't caught, they must be dealt with in whatever method invokes them. Try operator by being noisy, tells you - "Hey, you're potentially returning here". That's a feature. Having many return in method can both be a smell, or it could be fine. I can find what lines potentially return (by searching for `?`).

An exception can be mostly ignored, until it bubbles up god knows where. THAT IS A HUGE FOOTGUN. In Java/C# every line in your program becomes a quiet return. You can't find what line returns because EVERY LINE CAN.