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| ▲ | orwin an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| For the first sales (Australia and either Norway or sweden, i dont remember), the US and lockheed Martin hid away the issues and lied on operating cost and availability. For sales to NATO: you have to buy a plane that can carry the US bomb if you don't have one yourself (despite the fact that nukes will probably never be launched from aircrafts if at all). For sales against competition, i don't have a lot of data, but you can check the Swiss 2022 competition between the F16, F18, Rafale, Gripen and F35, public data is scarce but basically, the Rafale and F18 would have been better on most points except VTOL and stealth. The choice however was probably economic (as while VTOL is nice, Swiss short airports are still longer than carriers, and stealth isn't that much of a factor in defense, especially in the Alps): they bought planes for less than half the price NATO countries did, and 60% of the money will be spent locally: basically 20% of the cost Germany and other NATO countries paid. |
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| ▲ | unwind a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | Norway for sure, they have been in NATO since they helped found it in 1949. Us Swedes needed a while to think about it, and joined on March 7, 2024. Sweden does not have the F-35, since we build our own [1] multi-role military aircraft. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen | |
| ▲ | lloeki 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > despite the fact that nukes will probably never be launched from aircrafts if at all "if at all": that's deterrence. I don't think any nuke-able aircraft small-country customer intent is to launch, but you gotta have the ability to. "from aircrafts": when you have no submarines/silos and carting ground launch platforms around is impractical for your country, aircraft is the only remaining option to display deterrence factors. | |
| ▲ | rjsw an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Typhoon would have been a good fit for Canada but the US vetoed it. |
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| ▲ | ossobuco an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What could explain this sales pipeline, if the F-35 was the boondoggle this article implies it to be? The overwhelming USA sphere of influence over its "allies". I don't really see a NATO member buying new fighter jets from China or Russia instead without that causing a big ruckus. |
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| ▲ | mrtksn 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What could explain this sales pipeline, if the F-35 was the boondoggle this article implies it to be? Easy, desire to please American politicians to fetch political support from the USA and strengthen your position as military ally. Ideally, you will be looking so scary that you wouldn’t have to actually use the plane. |
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| ▲ | fsloth 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | ” you will be looking so scary that you wouldn’t have to actually use the plane.” I’d say this is the main intent. But not only because of the political aspects. AFAIK the plane is intended to be used like an ultra-mobile target aquisition and launch platform designed to engage targets Really Far Away and then return to base (any base since it’s NATO compatible). It’s not really supposed to engage in Top Gun -style dogfighting. So the main question is the capability of the radar and the missiles you carry, not necessarily the air frame itself. And as I understand those are fit for purpose. Ofc if you are launching missiles far away for defensive purposes surely you could do it a lot cheaper, and that I would see as the main point of critique. I’m not saying the issues are not issues, but as a non-expert-paying-customer (my country bought 64 of them I think) as long as you get airborn, acquire target lock and can launch missile, you are more or less using the offering as promised. |
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| ▲ | MaxPock 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You buy F-35s to protect yourself from the mafia . |
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| ▲ | sofixa 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's the most modern jet that can be acquired. The Gripen, Rafale, Typhoon are all very good jets, but they're around half a generation behind; they're still popular and acquired by various countries because they better fit their requirements (or because the US doesn't want to sell them F-35). |
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| ▲ | invalidname an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The article is sensational and deeply misleading. Yes, the plane has a lot of bugs. It's got complicated software and hardware. You can't compare it to the relatively simple older designs that didn't deal with stealth. Yes they don't need to test dogfights because war isn't a video game. When the enemy sees the f35 it is after it already sent the missile in your direction. You don't need to dogfight if you're an invisible ghost that can kill from a distance. The f16 had a ton of bugs such as flipping over when south of the equator. It's a much better machine now and the f35 has all the makings to be a similar leap forward. |
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| ▲ | belter 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Microsoft enters the room.... |
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| ▲ | imwillofficial an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Unfortunately we do not measure combat weapons in terms of commercial success. We measure them in terms of lethality and reliability. |
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| ▲ | aa-jv 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >What could explain this sales pipeline, if the F-35 was the boondoggle this article implies it to be? A lack of actual proven fight-testing. |
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| ▲ | DocTomoe 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is it? The 737 has been sold 12000 times, with thousands of orders in the pipeline. The A320 is not far behind, but only got introduced twenty years later Even if you just consider military airframes, the MiG-21 has been built 11000 times, and is/was used by more than 50 operators world-wide, all of which have paid for the privilege. Then there's the C-130, with 2500 units produced and operated by 70 countries. The first American Fighter jet would be the F-4 Phantom II, with 5000 units built, and used extensively abroad. The F-16 has 4600 units built up to now and is used by more than 25 countries. (I'm ignoring the P-51 with its 15000 units here because they were mostly used by the US and rarely sold abroad). tl;dr: The F-35 is not the most commercially successful airframe in the world, in fact, it does not even come close. |
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| ▲ | formerly_proven 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > the boondoggle this article implies it to be? I highly recommend reading contemporary reporting on what are considered wildly successful aircraft (like the teen series F-14/15/16). Hint: Just change one number and they're indistinguishable from reporting on the F-35. |