| ▲ | modeless 13 hours ago |
| I disagree. Starlink is indeed awesome and SpaceX deserves every bit of their success. But there will be competitors eventually, if for no other reason than foreign militaries sponsoring them. There's no inherent reason for this to be a winner takes all market. We can only hope the competitors are half as responsible as SpaceX has been about space debris risk and ensuring the satellites are not visible to the naked eye and don't disrupt astronomy. So far the proposals I've seen have been much worse than Starlink in these areas. |
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| ▲ | nordsieck 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| IMO, one of the central problems is the cost of launching stuff into space. Today, SpaceX offers world leading low prices to launch satellites: $4 m / tonne[1]. But Starlink has access to launch at cost, which is $0.86 m / tonne[2]. Which is a huge advantage when launching an enormous number of satellites. One thing to keep in mind, especially for these LEO constellations: the lifetime of these satellites is 5-10 years. Which means the operators can never stop launching. It's an ongoing operational cost. For smaller operators like OneWeb, they don't have to launch that often, but for a serious competitor like Kuiper, they'll be constantly launching some satellite every year. IMO, launch cost will be a problem even for China. The cost of an LEO constellation is so high that even if it's partially subsidized by the military it'll be a serious cost for the country. That could change pretty soon, though - various companies and organizations in China are aggressively working on getting reusable rockets working. --- 1. $70 m / 17.5 tonnes == $4 m / tonne 2. $15 m[3] / 17.5 tonnes == $0.86 / tonne 3. The $15 m number is not public info, but it is widely believed that it is in the correct ballpark. |
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| ▲ | nrmitchi 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In the past this at-cost dealing would have been considered monopolistic enough to force divestment (ie, almost exactly the same as Boeing and United Airlines divestment due to the Air Mail Act). > Air Mail Act of 1934:
> This legislation prohibited the common ownership of airlines and aircraft manufacturers to prevent conflicts of interest and promote fair competition in the aviation industry. | | |
| ▲ | nordsieck 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > In the past this at-cost dealing would have been considered monopolistic enough to force divestment I guess we'll see what happens. As with most things monopoly related, the critical fight is over how to appropriately define the market. Presumably SpaceX would argue that Starlink is an ISP and that it just happens to use satellites to deliver its service. And if that doesn't work, then it's a satellite internet provider, but competes with both LEO and GEO services. If it ever goes to court, it'll be interesting to see how such an argument holds up. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | For obvious reasons I think it's pretty safe to say we can count on at least the next four years of zero regulation or government scrutiny of any company Musk is involved in, monopoly-related or otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You believe the FAA, FCC, OHSA, EPA, FDA, etc., will cease to regulate SpaceX, Tesla, Nuralink operations? That seems pretty outlandish. | | |
| ▲ | michaelt 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They won't cease to regulate, no. But you may have noticed companies like Boeing getting white-glove treatment from regulators. You know, deciding that their competitor's cheaper aircraft should be subject to a 300% tariff. Not burdening them with too much scrutiny about whether that modified aircraft should keep the same type rating. Taking their word for it when they say every aircraft has 100% of the door bolts installed. If they have broken some regulations, maybe giving a $150 billion company a $250 million fine. Not ceasing to regulate - just regulators with broad discretionary power exercising that discretion in line with the will of the politicians who appoint them. | |
| ▲ | vbezhenar 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Starlink is the most important military weapon in the world right now. Those civilian organizations have no say when state security is at hand. It's like disarming nuclear rockets because some green guys care about birds. Will not happen. | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "National security" obviously gets significant concessions from regulators. That doesn't mean military and adjacent industries or significant industries and works are above the regulators, it just means the necessity of the activity and input from military and other interested parties would be duly taken into account by regulators. That's not unique to SpaceX and I don't think that's wrong as such, although people argue that military interests in general get too much leeway. | |
| ▲ | hhh 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Starshield != Starlink | | |
| ▲ | bbarnett 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Parent should have said "SpaceX", Starlink is just a subsidiary. SpaceX has more military applications than Starshield alone. For example, SpaceX's assembly line will be pumping out (eventually) a rocket a day. That's the plan. From a military perspective, Starship is supposed to be able to send 100+ people on long space trips. If that is instead to deliver troops to other parts of the planet, I'm sure hundreds could be packed in. Imagine a fast deploy with parachute capability for personnel and cargo, just as with planes, but with immense range and deploy speed. You may wonder why, but aircraft carriers and their fleets are considered less usable as deploy platforms, due to increased vulnerability. If the US continues to withdraw from the world stage, its ability to deploy could be affected by a reduction in 'friendly' regional countries and thus leased bases. I don't see any issue with this now, but once a large conflict breaks out, who knows... and this could vastly enhance Starship or equiv as a deploy platform. I'm sure some reading this will balk at "large war" and "never happen" and so on, but Starshield is an example of a platform for such a large conflict. So considering the use of Starship itself as a lightning speed, emergency deploy platform is important. There are all sorts of gotchas, such as being shot down, but of course those same issues exist with planes or ships. Frankly, with the state of AI, the close-to-real Android + military robots, along with drones, Starship would be best served by mass fly-over and deploy of 100k small drones, or hundreds of military robot platforms, or.. well, lots of things. This really isn't about Starship of course. It's just that we've gotten to the point where this sort of platform is very usable. I can't imagine sending in a large-cost asset like this for general troop deploy, but I can for special ops, weapons platforms in low-risk flyovers, and a variety of other use cases. And in times of war, things get nationalized too. Interesting thoughts on the logistics side. |
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| ▲ | btilly 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Elon Musk was just appointed by Donald Trump as being in charge of firing half of the government. He won't likely do that. But any regulator who gets in his way? Yeah, not many will volunteer for "the firing line." | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I really don't know what Musk has been appointed to do and it's a laughably blatant conflict of interest, but conflicts of interest seem to be what the entire government is built on. Politicians involved with energy and military companies are involved in decisions to go to war, generals get lucrative consultancy jobs at military firms, congress makes billions of dollars insider trading, foreign aid somehow finds its way funneled through "charities" owned by the ruling class, politicians cosy with medical companies block real healthcare reform, etc. Musk isn't anything new or different here. The idea that he'll just be above the law is fearmongering hyperbole though. Sure he'll get favorable treatment and be able to push his agenda to degrees well out of reach of us commoners. No more than if he'd just stayed in the shadows and bought his politicians and judges and bureaucrats and generals like a normal billionaire. | | |
| ▲ | hsuduebc2 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I follow the same reasoning as you. This is actually nothing really "new". Patronage from politicics is something that is publicly criticized but is quite common among politicians and business. | | |
| ▲ | smolder 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's too bad no one in government will ever step up to undo the citizens united ruling. At least we didn't have legal-but-opaque bribery, prior. The difference is substantial when people can't report on where campaign financing comes from without someone first talking too loud about it in a public setting. | | |
| ▲ | _heimdall 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The good news, at least, is that Citizens United was only a legal ruling and can be overturned by another ruling. Laws are much harder to undue, with rulings we don't need anyone in the government to step up (other than judges trying the case). |
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| ▲ | einichi 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How can you determine a conflict of interest if you don’t know what he’s been appointed to do? | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because I heard he was going to have some advisory or executive capacity on government operation. There's a significant conflict of interest there if he's running and owning these companies at the same time. | | |
| ▲ | _heimdall 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Its hard to determine a conflict of interest when the role isn't clear though, and the problem there is that everyone can really go off of what they heard through the grape vine. If the role truly is advisory I wouldn't personally see that as a conflict of interest. Regulators are often asking for advise from those they are meant to regulate without it getting flagged as a conflict of interest (for better or worse). | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't think it's that hard to determine. He has big companies involved in significant regulatory actions and oversight, he would stand to gain a lot by influencing things slightly in his favor. Sure, taken to absurdity everybody in government has a conflict of interest because they are alive on the same planet and have heir own views on things, but for the case of someone like Musk it's pretty clear. Politicians and bureaucrats can and should consult with the people they govern of course. The "proper" way to do that would be via reasonably open and transparent process that is open to interested parties so competitors, customers, unions, scientists could have their say. Again I'm fully aware this isn't how things actually work, so I'm not saying Musk is really doing anything outside the norm in American politics by buying a seat at the table. He's just being slightly more open about it than most of them. |
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| ▲ | mschuster91 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The idea that he'll just be above the law is fearmongering hyperbole though Is it? If there is anything the 45th and the aftermath has shown is that there are people clearly above the law. And even without the 45th, Musk himself has escaped justice many many times - especially the SEC whose explicit orders he openly defied multiple times. | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes I think it is, and I think the rhetoric around Trump is hyperbole and fearmongering too. Not that you can't criticize them, I just don't see exaggeration being interesting or helpful there. Also I think caring about certain corruption or conflicts of interest when it happens to politicians one disagrees with is fairly easy to be seen as being divisive or politically motivated even if it's not. I thought that wheeling out the architects of the Iraq war to denounce Trump's corruption/incompetence/bad foreign policy/etc was particularly ironic and sad, for example, even if they might have been technically correct. Musk isn't going to be immune to federal regulators. I'm sure he'll get the kinds of favors that come with buying politicians as all the rest of them get though. | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Yes I think it is, and I think the rhetoric around Trump is hyperbole and fearmongering too. Well just reading through Project 2025 is very sobering. It's not like old times where what they wanted had to be read through the lines any more, it's right out in the open what they want to do - and even getting a quarter of their plans actually passed through is a very, very troubling perspective. > I thought that wheeling out the architects of the Iraq war to denounce Trump's corruption/incompetence/bad foreign policy/etc was particularly ironic and sad, for example, even if they might have been technically correct. A sad consequence of people no longer debating policy on a shared common ground based on facts, but on tribalism, lies and propaganda instead. | | |
| ▲ | starspangled 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I shouldn't have brought up Trump, the subject never goes anywhere useful in an online debate. That was just my opinion, and other opinions and fears are not invalid. > > I thought that wheeling out the architects of the Iraq war to denounce Trump's corruption/incompetence/bad foreign policy/etc was particularly ironic and sad, for example, even if they might have been technically correct. > A sad consequence of people no longer debating policy on a shared common ground based on facts, but on tribalism, lies and propaganda instead. Yep. When they do that it does make you wonder who shares common ground with whom, and who spreads lies and propaganda about what. |
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| ▲ | mullingitover 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Safe to say? You sure about that? I’d say it’s just as likely that six months from now there will be a falling out, Musk will be called a pathetic loser, government agencies will be turned against him, etc. If past behavior is any kind of indicator, it’s more likely than not. I would not be surprised if we see Musk doing a perp walk within 12 months. | | |
| ▲ | perihelions 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For those who forgot, Musk joined Trump v1.0's advisory council in December 2016 [a], and resigned from it in June 2017 [b]. All of this played out once before. [a] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13175928 ("Trump Names Elon Musk, Uber CEO to Advisory Team – TheHill (thehill.com)", 92 comments) [b] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14465667 ("Elon Musk quits Trump advisory councils, saying, 'Climate change is real' (latimes.com)", 4 comments) | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Trump is likely to have an entirely unexpected terminal medical event before his term is over. The nation will mourn his heroic patriotism. Then business will carry on as usual, only more so, with a more compliant leader. | |
| ▲ | griomnib 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There can only be one Main Character, and Trump doesn’t share the spotlight with anybody. Elon will fuck up and his money won’t save him from what comes after that. | | |
| ▲ | squilliam 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Great fanfic material | |
| ▲ | flyinglizard 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Elon knows well enough to act as a supporting character. He can't run for presidency anyway given he's not a native, and no other political post would be interesting enough. There'll be no falling out. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Trump is not a native either, his family is German and Scottish (just checked). So far as I know a native has never held the presidency in the US. | | |
| ▲ | southernplaces7 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | What silly political posturing. Native-born is the specific reference, and a perfectly valid one. By your logic, if the current descendants of people who have been here for many centuries by now aren't natives, than vast parts of the world's population are also not natives of the places where their families have lived for centuries. Why not go further and say that the "natives" also aren't natives since they also migrated to the Americas over the Bering land bridge? |
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| ▲ | zo1 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And this is why we can't have nice, cheap things. Instead we usually get that "cost" pressure solved by giving it on a silver platter to worker-rights-leading China. There has to be a better way to prevent abuses in the market without crippling it. But following from that, at what point did we assume this kind of (monopolistic) abuse would happen automatically anyways? I haven't seen it yet, so let's maybe hold off till it happens? Maybe one day X will host all sorts of government-unapproved content on satellites that are free from US jurisdiction and control? @Elon, do this now, they'll come for you eventually. | | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | it is a fascinating outcome when a vertically integrated monopoly is the cheapest option, and best consumer value. The challenge is figuring out if the firm is really providing the best value, or just a local minimum. | | |
| ▲ | modeless 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My understanding is Standard Oil provided good service for low prices in most cases. It's not always the case that monopolies provide super expensive or bad service. | |
| ▲ | DanielHB 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > vertically integrated monopoly is the cheapest option I would like to remind you that you can use google, gmail, google maps, google drive and a bunch of other services for free (and the best consumer value even if accounting for their data gathering). |
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| ▲ | ulfw 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Now that Starlink owner Musk effectively runs the US government from Trump's ear no divestment of any kind will happen that negatively impacts Mr. Musk |
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| ▲ | punnerud 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If China where to compete they also need LEO satellites that is just over China for a couple of minutes, that have to take a long round trip around the word to give a couple of minutes access again.
That’s why you need a huge constellation. It’s either selling to the whole world or nothing. If you don’t want to go for slow GEO stationary. | |
| ▲ | hkdobrev 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When Starship starts launching customer satellites, it's possible that even the price for customers would be cheap enough to launch and maintain a LEO constellation. But competing requires massive innovation in cheap and fast production of satellites which are very energy efficient and highly capable. Especially, the technology for starshield protecting against cyber warfare in space and the direct to cell capability. This would be the main reason for not emerging a viable competitor for some time. SpaceX has innovation advantage in the satellites, manufacturing, dishes, base stations, software apart from the launch capability. | |
| ▲ | est31 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is it really required to be an LEO constellation? It would certainly be good, so that eventually the satellites deorbit and contribute less to Kesseler syndrome risk. But some nation state might chose to not care about that and deploy at higher and more stable orbits. | | | |
| ▲ | Cthulhu_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah in theory China is the biggest potential competitor, having both a space program, a state deeply involved in business, etc. But their space tech is archaic in comparison, using really nasty fuels to blast stuff into space. The reusability of SpaceX's rockets is a feat that is years ahead of the competition - it's been nearly ten years since the first recovered Falcon 9 booster in a commercial launch if my quick fact check is accurate, and no other competitor, private or governmental, has managed it yet. And in a few years they will have a reusable vessel capable of launching 100 tonnes into LEO, at a fraction of the development and launch cost of e.g. the Space Shuttle. Unless of course Musk's political fuckery ends up dismantling SpaceX. But, Musk didn't do the engineering on these feats, so the knowledge and patents will continue on if he doesn't. | |
| ▲ | sudosysgen 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not actually necessary to use reusable rockets to get at a similar cost per launch. Long March 5 is at 2.8M$/ton (so less than SpaceX commercial price). Also, 15M$/launch is not widely believed to be correct. There is much creative accounting SpaceX could be doing with Starlink (is at-cost account for booster depreciation? If so how, since we don't know how much reuse a booster can be expected to give? Or is it just the cost of refurbishment?), and since the last statement where Elon claimed 1000$ per kg actual cost, SpaceX had to raise their prices, claiming it was due to inflation - is that accurate? Most estimates I've seen are that the cost is 20-30M/launch, which would instead give 1.1-1.7M/ton. So, it's a big advantage but not an insurmountable one. | | |
| ▲ | adastra22 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Boosters don’t depreciate. They are actually considered more valuable with more successful launches. | | |
| ▲ | quailfarmer 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | They do depreciate, even if the later launches are more valuable, that increase in value is marginal compared to the per-launch capital cost. Airplanes, cars, buildings, everything depreciates. | | |
| ▲ | adastra22 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | What do you mean by per-launch capital cost? Maintenance? The increase in value of a F9 booster after use is more than the near-negligible per-launch maintenance cost. | | |
| ▲ | michaelt 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Depreciation" and "capital cost" reflect the fact the vehicle has a maximum life, even given maintenance. Imagine if I buy a $200,000 Lamborghini which, with regular servicing, will survive 100,000 miles. That means for every mile I drive, not only am I paying for fuel, and insurance, and tyres, and servicing - I'm also paying, on average, $2/mile in depreciation. And sure, the "true" value chart might not be linear. Maybe there'll be a sharp drop when the car ceases to be brand new, or a bump in value when it becomes a classic. But so long as it's worth $200k at 0 miles and $0 at 100k miles, the average cost of a mile must be $2. | | |
| ▲ | adastra22 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The statistics here are inverted. The main marginal cost of a launch is the risk of loss of payload which the customer must insure against. The risk of loss of payload actually goes DOWN with more launches, making costs cheaper the more a booster is reused. It’s as if your car gained value with every mile driven. |
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| ▲ | schiffern 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >We can only hope competitors are half as responsible as SpaceX... about space debris.. and satellite [visibility]
Thank you. For those unaware, one of the SpaceX engineers gave a talk to professional astronomers on this topic.https://youtu.be/MNc5yCYth5E?t=1717 |
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| ▲ | greenavocado 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We civilians aren't going to get anything useful from foreign militaries launching payloads |
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| ▲ | Nevermark 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > There's no inherent reason for this to be a winner takes all market. Economics? Competitors would have to match SpaceX's vertical integration: Satellite design, reusable launches at cost, its exiting armada of satellites, and its moving target of customer penetration. The latter is huge. Starlink is clearly not satisfied leaving any satellite demand on the table. There is no military on Earth that has demand for satellite bandwidth approaching anything like SpaceX's, which is basically being designed to meet the needs of the whole planet. Note that militaries (US, China, Russia, Europe, ...) have their custom means of communicating on planet, for unique reasons, but the vast majority of their communication is over commercial cell phones. This is no different. If anyone was going to have a chance, it was Bezos. But neither his launch capabilities, or big satellite constellation plans, have amounted to much. China will feel the need to try. But they won't have SpaceX's customer base to support a fraction of a comparable effort. (And I say that as someone who has tremendous respect for the multi-decade cadence of their space capability march.) |
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| ▲ | modeless 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | "SpaceX is really good and it's hard to compete with them" is not an economic reason for it to be winner takes all. Economic reasons would be, for example, regulations that either explicitly or implicitly prohibit others from competing, as are present in many terrestrial ISP markets. Some way for SpaceX to corner the market for some essential resource like spectrum or orbits and exclude competitors that way. | | |
| ▲ | michaelt an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm no economics expert, but I gather certain industries are known as 'natural monopolies' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly I don't know what the precise defining lines are, but I can certainly see how you'd make more money running an electricity cable to a home with no electricity, than running a second cable to a home that already had an electricity supply in place. And Wikipedia says "frequently occurs in industries where capital costs predominate [...] examples include public utilities such as water services, electricity, telecommunications, mail, etc" - starlink does sound like capital-intensive telecommunications. Of course, even if nobody cares to take on Starlink in the broadband satellite internet market, there are a bunch of incumbent cable and cell phone companies. So it's not like starlink are on course to an internet access monopoly. | |
| ▲ | cjblomqvist 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Vertical integration is definitely one. It's such a big factor it can cause regulators to break up a company. See Google/Chrome as an example from last week. | | |
| ▲ | modeless 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | "SpaceX is vertically integrated" is also not an economic reason for the space ISP market to be winner takes all. Vertical integration doesn't cause breakups. Anticompetitive behavior causes breakups, with or without vertical integration. And vertical integration is not some kind of cheat code to suppress competition. It can be a business advantage but it can also easily be a disadvantage. |
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| ▲ | mmaunder 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Game that out for us. How government innovation competes with a private sector launch company whose main differentiator is lower cost. |
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| ▲ | modeless 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | China is going to do it for sure. It doesn't have to be as efficient as SpaceX if it is massively subsidized for defense purposes. And China is pretty good at building things cheap. On the commercial side Blue Origin has been slow in starting but they are almost ready and will have relatively cheap launches. There are other up and coming private launch competitors too. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The issue is that space launch has some huge economies of scale. And {world space launch demand} is >> {one country's space launch demand} The argument for China overcoming SpaceX would be: - China needs to get within functional (not cost) technological parity with SpaceX ASAP (i.e. which means reusability, albeit for cadence/capacity reasons) - After that, they need to incentivize global demand to launch on Chinese rockets (likely heavily subsidizing prices to attract demand) - After that, they need to continue to out-innovate SpaceX on technological and economic fronts Of those, convincing a substantial portion of global launch demand to use Chinese rockets seems the trickiest bit, give the CCP's relationship with the rule of law. | | |
| ▲ | MaxPock 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "convincing a substantial portion of global launch demand to use Chinese rockets seems the trickiest bit, give the CCP's relationship with the rule of law." Expound more on this please assuming I'm a potential Brazilian South African ,Saudi or Thai client . | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 an hour ago | parent [-] | | For countries that aren't on the US' shit list (e.g. Brazil, South Africa, Saudi Arabia, or Thailand), why would I take a chance on Chinese legal agreements instead of American ones? The American private company might be prohibited from launching military assets for you, but once a launch contract is otherwise signed, you know it's going to happen. In contrast, a Chinese legal agreement is worth what, if the central government decides to get involved? | | |
| ▲ | maxglute 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | American Gov is far, far more fickle and likely to "get involved" / abuse export controls / fuck over friendlies due to domestic politics. Space is ITAR heavy, there's less guarantee that private American company can honor agreement than CCP verbal contract. This is 2024, JP steel just happened, US "rule of law" means nothing when strategic interests involved, never have. Can't say the same about PRC, granted they're to high end capabilities export. Ultimately, going with PRC likely will get you ITAR tier tech access bundled with cheaper launch, see state of military drones sales. |
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| ▲ | wmf 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think China needs any third-party payloads. Even if they only launch Qianfan it should be enough to bring costs down. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 an hour ago | parent [-] | | The issue is that SpaceX, unlike any space company since some never-realized 1960s hypotheticals, is a flywheel company built around scaling. They create demand so they can scale manufacturing that they can use to decrease prices that creates more demand... etc. etc. You can't beat a company doing that by just getting "big enough" unless the scaling company (a) runs out of increased demand or (b) cannot convert increased volume into cheaper economics per unit. Neither of those seem very plausible. |
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| ▲ | nordsieck 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > On the commercial side Blue Origin has been slow in starting but they are almost ready and will have relatively cheap launches. [citation needed] Sure, New Glenn is designed to be a partially reusable rocket. But it's far from clear that they'll even successfully launch on their debut, not to mention recover the booster. And even when they've sorted all that out, word on the street is that the rocket was not designed to be inexpensively manufactured. It's not clear to me just now low reuse can help drive down their launch price. | |
| ▲ | jimmydoe 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nothing is impossible but it takes time. Based on current disclosed plan, they will have same number of LEOs as SpaceX have today by ~2030; and SpaceX is not slowing down either. | |
| ▲ | jaimex2 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | China is very good at copying things but this is one they'll have trouble with given the strict employment requirements. |
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| ▲ | ANewFormation 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And adding onto this it's not just cost, they also have the fastest turn around and the highest reliability. It's vaguely analogous to the early automobile market where Ford was dominating by every single objective metric so competitors were left to compete on subjective metrics like styles. Incidentally this era is where planned obsolescence really took off. Unfortunately for competitors I'm not sure coating a rocket in a chrome finish and running a sleek ad campaign is going to beat out price+speed+reliability. | |
| ▲ | freeone3000 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | blink By spending more money in absolute terms to achieve objectives, without a necessitative need of immediate profit? |
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| ▲ | 01100011 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tesla fanatics espouse the same sort of thinking. Tesla will figure out FSD and will capture the entire automotive market leaving competitors to close up shop and give up. I don't get it. Otherwise intelligent people have told me some version of this with a straight face. It's like they've somehow blocked how the economy functions out of their minds in an effort to further exalt Tesla. |
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| ▲ | wmf 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not the same because there are plenty of companies that can manufacture cars at scale but only one company that can launch satellites cheaply. Arguably Waymo is ahead of Tesla FSD and they have access to the mature Hyundai and Zeekr supply chains. | | |
| ▲ | 01100011 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is the same. In both cases people are doubting the ability of the free market(and non-free markets) to detect and respond to an opportunity. How long do you think it will be before a, say, Chinese SpaceX catches up while being unfettered by environmental restrictions and backed by government subsidies? Space is quite important and as the world deglobalizes there will be intense pressure to compete. SpaceX is breaking new ground and giving other competitors plenty to copy. |
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| ▲ | adastra22 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| With respect, I’m not sure you understand the scale of what we are talking about. No other organization — including national space agencies and military contractors — has the life capacity to compete with Starlink at ANY cost. Even if money were no object, the other contenders literally don’t have the launch capacity and can’t reasonably scale up. It’s as if Intel released the Pentium Pro back in the 50’s when everyone else was working with vacuum tubes. Yes, in theory there is room for competition. But the gulf is so large in practice. |
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| ▲ | la64710 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is already available in iPhone with their text based coverage: https://support.apple.com/en-us/120930 Probably they are using GSAT satellites. |
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| ▲ | modeless 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Apple's feature is not comparable. It is extremely low bandwidth and requires special hardware and holding the phone pointing in a certain direction. Starlink acts as a regular (albeit low bandwidth) 4G tower in space. | | |
| ▲ | quailfarmer 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Starlink DTC is also very low bandwidth in this generation, it’s is a fundamentally similar RF link budget | | |
| ▲ | modeless 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Starlink DTC bandwidth is orders of magnitude higher than Apple's. | |
| ▲ | everfrustrated 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Starlink allows calling (Apple's can't) which requires a higher bandwidth by definition. Obviously it will never have the bandwidth of a local cell site, but doesn't need to to still be useful. |
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| ▲ | meta_x_ai 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You have no idea the margins at which Elon Musk operates. If you read his biography he is obsessive about cost cutting like no else in the history of mankind. There are plenty of examples where Musk brings down the cost of a component by 90%. No other leader takes risks like Musk and hence he will always push frontiers. His companies never get lazy or bloated even if it reaches $10T market cap. Musk methods can't be replicated because it is the anti-thesis of every management practice. |
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| ▲ | throwing_away 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I disagree too, but because it will no longer require military budget to start a SpaceX competitor. Pretty soon AI agents could reasonably take a crack at it. |
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