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insane_dreamer 2 days ago

is this news? this sounds like every university in the US, which uses underpaid adjuncts to do most of the teaching and underpaid phd candidates and postdocs to do most of the research

not saying this is right -- adjuncts and postdocs absolutely need to be paid more commensurately with the value they provide -- but it has been the status quo for a long time; the bigger problem is that it used to be a temporary stepping stone to professorship, whereas now universities are perpetually and increasingly relying on this cheap labor to cut costs, making the path for academia an increasingly tortuous one. It's highly counter productive because who wants to go through all that instead if you can get a job in industry that values you much more? The result is that you don't get the best and brightest educating the next generation, except maybe at a few universities - Oxford, Stanford, Harvard, MIT, etc. - where the prestige itself is enough of a draw.

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> this sounds like every university in the US, which uses underpaid adjuncts to do most of the teaching and underpaid phd candidates and postdocs to do most of the research

Pro tip to anyone going to university (or has kids going to university). Find a low ranked state school that has a high teacher to student ratio. Also look at the percentage of classes with under 20 students.

I did my undergrad at one of those places. Currently the ratio is 1:17. The percentage of classes with under 20 students is 60%.

Because it's low ranked, the pressure to get grants isn't as high. Because each course has fewer students, the professors are much more available. As an example, a professor who had only 3 hours a week for office hours was thought of as "stingy". Most had about 6 hours. They'd combine the OH for all the courses they were teaching, and could easily offer 5+ hours because there are so few students (at times no one would show up).

Only one humanities course was taught by a non-faculty member. Everyone else was tenured, on the tenure track, or a permanent assistant professor (i.e. spousal hire).

The quality of education was pretty good, too. They probably had a lighter load than a top university, but I'm not sure that's bad. I went to a top 3 school for graduate studies, and took some of their undergrad courses while there. It was brutal, and the undergrads were clearly overworked. Worse - most of the work was just busy work. They weren't really working on anything more challenging than the folks in low ranked universities.

Down side: Your peers aren't as smart, and your peers are really what push you to work on interesting projects.

If you really want the name recognition, go do a quick MS at a top school thereafter.

jjmarr 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Down side: Your peers aren't as smart, and your peers are really what push you to work on interesting projects.

This outweighs pretty much everything else for me.

Your ego either inflates to infinity because you're a big fish in a small pond, or you get depressed being around really incompetent people.

Every lecture I have is booked for 300 people but only 20-40 people ever show up. And yet everyone complains that the courses are too hard.

Is it easy and low stress? Probably. But I feel like I'm being driven into mediocrity.

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Your ego either inflates to infinity because you're a big fish in a small pond, or you get depressed being around really incompetent people.

Neither was the case with me. If you want intellectual stimulation, just go talk to the professors!

> Is it easy and low stress? Probably. But I feel like I'm being driven into mediocrity.

Quoting another comment of mine:

"Yes, you need the motivation to do well. In my experience, and of those I've asked who were in a similar situation: If you are aiming high and go to such a school, you believe you're getting an inferior education (mostly false), and you compensate by studying more than what is assigned. Then you go to a top grad school and find you know more than your peers who went to a top university."

jjmarr 20 hours ago | parent [-]

> Neither was the case with me. If you want intellectual stimulation, just go talk to the professors!

Many of the professors don't make their own slides. They just read stuff someone else wrote and pretend to understand it. Then they proceed to buy a test bank and grade us on content they don't fully grasp.

I don't even care about the education; it's just wanting to meet like-minded people and not being able to.

Really, the only thing that's motivating me is the job I'm going to after graduation. I did a 16-month internship, and I don't think I've ever been happier/more emotionally fulfilled in my life.

bsder 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I can't talk about liberal arts, but, in engineering, your peers aren't going to be incompetent.

And, in my case, I found that the increased access to grad students and professors more than made up for any possible "weakness" in my peer group.

The Westinghouse engineers used to have a friendly rivalry because so many of them came from both CMU and Pitt. However, if you got both groups drunk, the CMU engineers would grudgingly admit that the primary difference between the two was an extra 10+ years to pay off their student loans.

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent [-]

> but, in engineering, your peers aren't going to be incompetent.

True - they were not incompetent where I went. But they also didn't dream big, the way you'd see students at top universities do.

insane_dreamer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Down side: Your peers aren't as smart, and your peers are really what push you to work on interesting projects.

You also don't have access to those interesting research projects to begin with. To be that's the biggest downside (if you're in the sciences / engineering).

I do generally agree with your post -- but I think it only works if you 1) apply yourself sufficiently despite not having peers pushing you (have to be able and willing to buck the tide; not everyone is), and 2) go to a top grad school (as you did), which requires point 1 to get accepted

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent [-]

> You also don't have access to those interesting research projects to begin with.

Faculty members still need to do research to get grant money and pay part of their salary. They still want to publish papers. They still compete. At least where I went, the research was interesting enough.

> apply yourself sufficiently despite not having peers pushing you (have to be able and willing to buck the tide; not everyone is),

Yes, you need the motivation to do well. In my experience, and of those I've asked who were in a similar situation: If you are aiming high and go to such a school, you believe you're getting an inferior education (mostly false), and you compensate by studying more than what is assigned. Then you go to a top grad school and find you know more than your peers who went to a top university.

But if you're not motivated, then this whole thread is rather pointless. And if you're not motivated, you definitely are better off going to a mediocre state school. You could seriously get burnout at a top university and drop out. I've known fairly smart people at those top universities end up that way.

vikramkr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you really value faculty involvement etc, I might suggest focusing on finding out those statistics directly and getting a sense of what current student experiences are like. That's as opposed to relying on a proxy like student/faculty ratios, low rankings or being a state school. Each state runs its own state schools (and some cities like NY have their own) and have wildly different levels of funding and support for education. And being public does not make them immune from going the adjunct all the way route.

Student faculty ratios can be reported using "full time equivalent" faculty. Meaning, your class of less than 20 students might not have a more available professor, because they're actually also teaching at 2 other universities in the same system to make ends meet. It's not the ratio to the number of tenured faculty, adjuncts count.

For class size, you can have dozens of small classes nobody takes, and have giant lectures for the core intro classes everyone takes. Then the average class size of the classes offered is quite small, but the average class size of the classes you take is quite large.

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent [-]

> I might suggest focusing on finding out those statistics directly and getting a sense of what current student experiences are like.

And outside of liberal arts colleges, where are you going to get those statistics?

The places that openly boast these things tend to be very expensive, and hard to get admission into.

Certainly, if you have a shortlist already, you can email the department and ask for those stats directly. Most people don't have that shortlist, though.

> For class size, you can have dozens of small classes nobody takes, and have giant lectures for the core intro classes everyone takes. Then the average class size of the classes offered is quite small, but the average class size of the classes you take is quite large.

And that's why you look at the percentage of classes with under 20 students. It's certainly easy to find universities with as good a faculty/student ratio as what I posted, but with only 20% of the classes having less than 20 students.

Incidentally, if they have dozens of small classes, it's a good sign. A lot of departments will cancel a class if it has less than, say, 8 students.

vikramkr 2 days ago | parent [-]

> where Talk to current students/forum/visit etc. If you're gonna spend 3-6 years of your life there it's worth putting in the legwork. And figuring out the amount taught by adjuncts etc - you can just ask.

and on the percentage of classes under 20 - that's the exact metric I'm talking about being easy to game. You'd want to figure out what the sizes of the classes you actually take are.

BeetleB 2 days ago | parent [-]

> If you're gonna spend 3-6 years of your life there it's worth putting in the legwork

There are over 500 public universities/colleges. Your advice is great after you've made a shortlist. My advice is on making the shortlist to begin with.

> and on the percentage of classes under 20 - that's the exact metric I'm talking about being easy to game.

Technically true, and overly pedantic. I'd put money that 90% of the schools that have that metric actually will have fewer students in the classes in the major of your interest (likely engineering). In the real world, these kinds of counterexamples you speak of are, well, the exception.

Engineering is demanding, and many students drop out after the sophomore year. At least in my department, they had a very clear and open goal: If you don't do well enough in the introductory courses, you will simply be disallowed from taking junior level courses. You needed a B on a key (not easy) course, and a grade of at least 75% on that course's final exam.

I sincerely doubt there are many (if any) universities trying to game that metric. Letting professors teach small classes is expensive. Which is why I said that if a university really has a weird distribution where there are lots of courses with a tiny number of students - that in itself is a good omen!

blitzar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Pro tip to anyone going to university (or has kids going to university). Find a highest ranked school that will have you; attend, pass, get good work experience, slap it on your CV a get a good job.

stanford_labrat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this is all my opinion as a 3rd year phd candidate who is thoroughly disillusioned. in STEM science there are two types of labor: thinking of experiments to do, and actually doing experiments. doing experiments is high-skill, manual labor. you often work with dangerous materials for crazy hours (some experiments take 10 hours to just do and you have no choice but to work from start to finish) and do tasks that are physically and technically challenging. as such, the fair market wage for this labor is actually pretty high. when i was an employee at Stanford, I was making nearly 80k in salary alone and i had fantastic health, retirement, and vacation benefits. oh, and i had overtime as a union employee to boot.

higher institutions realized that they could conveniently circumvent the rightfully high cost of labor to do experiments by hiring "graduate students" who they can pay poverty wages to do the manual scientific labor in exchange for a degree. as a student i am classified as a 20 hour per week worker, 20 hour per week student, and paid 37k a year. to be honest i wouldn't mind this if i actually were allowed to work 20 hours per week but this is not the case. the expectation, is that you will work 50-60 MINIMUM. and don't even get me started on postdocs. the PhD market has become so oversaturated due to the over-training of PhDs that to be competitive you must do an additional 5-8 years of "training" as a postdoc (again at poverty wages around 45-50k) before you get the opportunity to APPLY faculty positions.

this has had some predictable but unfortunate consequences. for one, institutions no longer select for the best and brightest. their number 1 criteria for offers of admission is "ability to finish the phd" aka willingness to be subject to these labor conditions for 4-7 years. of course you do need a minimum level of intellectual ability to get there, but trust me when i say this, the bar is low. and academia has suffered because of it imo. prestigious institutions get by as you mentioned by having their pick of the smartest AND hard working.

pdfernhout 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thanks for your informative post. Related background on why that has happened by Dr. David Goodstein of Caltech from 1994: https://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/crunch_art.html

    "The period 1950-1970 was a true golden age for American science. Young Ph.D's could choose among excellent jobs, and anyone with a decent scientific idea could be sure of getting funds to pursue it. The impressive successes of scientific projects during the Second World War had paved the way for the federal government to assume responsibility for the support of basic research. Moreover, much of the rest of the world was still crippled by the after-effects of the war. At the same time, the G.I. Bill of Rights sent a whole generation back to college transforming the United States from a nation of elite higher education to a nation of mass higher education. Before the war, about 8% of Americans went to college, a figure comparable to that in France or England. By now more than half of all Americans receive some sort of post-secondary education. The American academic enterprise grew explosively, especially in science and technology. The expanding academic world in 1950-1970 created posts for the exploding number of new science Ph.D.s, whose research led to the founding of journals, to the acquisition of prizes and awards, and to increases in every other measure of the size and quality of science. At the same time, great American corporations such as AT&T, IBM and others decided they needed to create or expand their central research laboratories to solve technological problems, and also to pursue basic research that would provide ideas for future developments. And the federal government itself established a network of excellent national laboratories that also became the source of jobs and opportunities for aspiring scientists. Even so, that explosive growth was merely a seamless continuation of a hundred years of exponential growth of American science. It seemed to one and all (with the notable exception of Derek da Solla Price) that these happy conditions would go on forever.

    By now, in the 1990's, the situation has changed dramatically. With the Cold War over, National Security is rapidly losing its appeal as a means of generating support for scientific research. There are those who argue that research is essential for our economic future, but the managers of the economy know better. The great corporations have decided that central research laboratories were not such a good idea after all. Many of the national laboratories have lost their missions and have not found new ones. The economy has gradually transformed from manufacturing to service, and service industries like banking and insurance don't support much scientific research. To make matters worse, the country is almost 5 trillion dollars in debt, and scientific research is among the few items of discretionary spending left in the national budget. There is much wringing of hands about impending shortages of trained scientific talent to ensure the Nation's future competitiveness, especially since by now other countries have been restored to economic and scientific vigor, but in fact, jobs are scarce for recent graduates. Finally, it should be clear by now that with more than half the kids in America already going to college, academic expansion is finished forever.

    Actually, during the period since 1970, the expansion of American science has not stopped altogether. Federal funding of scientific research, in inflation-corrected dollars, doubled during that period, and by no coincidence at all, the number of academic researchers has also doubled. Such a controlled rate of growth (controlled only by the available funding, to be sure) is not, however, consistent with the lifestyle that academic researchers have evolved. The average American professor in a research university turns out about 15 Ph.D students in the course of a career. In a stable, steady-state world of science, only one of those 15 can go on to become another professor in a research university. In a steady-state world, it is mathematically obvious that the professor's only reproductive role is to produce one professor for the next generation. But the American Ph.D is basically training to become a research professor. It didn't take long for American students to catch on to what was happening. The number of the best American students who decided to go to graduate school started to decline around 1970, and it has been declining ever since. ..."
Also on that theme from a different direction by Philip Greenspun originally posted in 2006: https://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

    "The picture so far is pretty bleak. The American academic scientist earns less than an airplane mechanic or child support profiteer, has less job security than a drummer in a boy band, and works longer hours than a Bolivian silver miner. ... Does this make sense as a career for anyone? Absolutely! Just get out your atlas. Imagine that you are a smart, but impoverished, young person in China. Your high IQ and hard work got you into one of the best undergraduate programs in China. The $1800 per month graduate stipend at University of Nebraska or University of Wisconsin will afford you a much higher standard of living than any job you could hope for in China. The desperate need for graduate student labor and lack of Americans who are interested in PhD programs in science and engineering means that you'll have no trouble getting a visa. When you finish your degree, a small amount of paperwork will suffice to ensure your continued place in the legal American work force. Science may be one of the lowest paid fields for high IQ people in the U.S., but it pays a lot better than most jobs in China or India. ..."
That last part may be less true two decades later giving rising standard of living in China and elsewhere.

That said, like the lottery, the PhD system does work out for some people.

But in general, the PhD process is a deeply broken system that chews up most people who go through it. Freeman Dyson has written on this as well. One example: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/freeman-dyson-phd-...

    ""Oh, yes. I’m very proud of not having a Ph.D. I think the Ph.D. system is an abomination. It was invented as a system for educating German professors in the 19th century, and it works well under those conditions. It’s good for a very small number of people who are going to spend their lives being professors. But it has become now a kind of union card that you have to have in order to have a job, whether it’s being a professor or other things, and it’s quite inappropriate for that. It forces people to waste years and years of their lives sort of pretending to do research for which they’re not at all well-suited. In the end, they have this piece of paper which says they’re qualified, but it really doesn’t mean anything. The Ph.D. takes far too long and discourages women from becoming scientists, which I consider a great tragedy. So I have opposed it all my life without any success at all.""
Also related From the Village Voice from 2004 about Humanities PhDs who generally have it even worse than STEM PhDs: "Wanted: Really Smart Suckers: Grad school provides exciting new road to poverty" https://web.archive.org/web/20050228044956/http://www.villag...

    "Here's an exciting career opportunity you won't see in the classified ads. For the first six to 10 years, it pays less than $20,000 and demands superhuman levels of commitment in a Dickensian environment. Forget about marriage, a mortgage, or even Thanksgiving dinners, as the focus of your entire life narrows to the production, to exacting specifications, of a 300-page document less than a dozen people will read. Then it's time for advancement: Apply to 50 far-flung, undesirable locations, with a 30 to 40 percent chance of being offered any position at all. You may end up living 100 miles from your spouse and commuting to three different work locations a week. You may end up $50,000 in debt, with no health insurance, feeding your kids with food stamps. If you are the luckiest out of every five entrants, you may win the profession's ultimate prize: A comfortable middle-class job, for the rest of your life, with summers off.

    Welcome to the world of the humanities Ph.D. student, 2004, where promises mean little and revolt is in the air. In the past week, Columbia's graduate teaching assistants went on strike and temporary, or adjunct, faculty at New York University narrowly avoided one. Columbia's Graduate Student Employees United seeks recognition, over the administration's appeals, of a two-year-old vote that would make it the second officially recognized union at a private university. NYU's adjuncts, who won their union in 2002, reached an eleventh-hour agreement for health care and office space, among other amenities.

    Grad students have always resigned themselves to relative poverty in anticipation of a cushy, tenured payoff. But in the past decade, the rules of the game have changed. Budget pressures have spurred universities' increasing dependence on so-called "casual labor," which damages both the working conditions of graduate students and their job prospects. Over half of the classroom time at major universities is now logged by non-tenure-track teachers, both graduate teaching assistants—known as TAs—and adjuncts. At community colleges, part-timers make up 60 percent of the faculties. ..."
If all that is not bad enough, here is an even worse aspect of it all: "Disciplined Minds by Jeff Schmidt": https://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/

    "Who are you going to be? That is the question.

    In this riveting book about the world of professional work, Jeff Schmidt demonstrates that the workplace is a battleground for the very identity of the individual, as is graduate school, where professionals are trained. He shows that professional work is inherently political, and that professionals are hired to subordinate their own vision and maintain strict "ideological discipline."

    The hidden root of much career dissatisfaction, argues Schmidt, is the professional's lack of control over the political component of his or her creative work. Many professionals set out to make a contribution to society and add meaning to their lives. Yet our system of professional education and employment abusively inculcates an acceptance of politically subordinate roles in which professionals typically do not make a significant difference, undermining the creative potential of individuals, organizations and even democracy.

    Schmidt details the battle one must fight to be an independent thinker and to pursue one's own social vision in today's corporate society. He shows how an honest reassessment of what it really means to be a professional employee can be remarkably liberating. After reading this brutally frank book, no one who works for a living will ever think the same way about his or her job."
One reason I am for a Universal Basic Income (UBI) is so everyone who wants it has a chance to live like an impoverished graduate student and pursue their intellectual dreams in cooperation with others of their choosing and without being exploited by an academic pyramid scheme.

Anyway, having passed through three PhD programs (in Industrial Engineering, Civil Engineering, and Ecology and Evolution plus essentially visiting another in Computing/Robotics for about a year), there is a lot more I could say on this (and have elsewhere).

jart a day ago | parent [-]

You don't need UBI to pursue your intellectual dreams. The upper classes already have UBI which is called living off interest and dividends. Even if you don't have a trust fund, you can still pursue your dreams. Just go backpacking and surf some couches. People will feed you and put a roof over your head if they believe in your dream too.

m463 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I wonder if medical residents get paid ridiculously low salaries too given their hours?

insane_dreamer a day ago | parent [-]

they do; the average resident salary is $64K, and given the number of hours in many cases they're being paid less than minimum wage / hour

it's basically free labor for the hospitals