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cherryteastain 2 days ago

All UK universities do this. Not necessarily a bad thing unlike how the article portrays it. PhD students (and depending on the institution, postdocs) in the UK get a stipend that has no mandated teaching hours. Teaching allows PhD students to earn some extra income within the university.

We certainly still have a compensation problem in academia. Bright STEM PhD grads don't want to earn £30-40k as a postdoc when earning £150k+ in big tech or finance isn't unusual. However, PhD students earning a little side income by marking lab reports or programming assessments isn't necessarily bad.

YeGoblynQueenne 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The article is talking about full-on lectureships, for example, this part-time role, initially advertised as full-time, according to the article:

>> One of Oxford’s top colleges, Christ Church, which had an income of £42.6m in 2022-23, is currently advertising a stipendiary lectureship in modern European history for £15,244 to £16,983.

For comparison, 15-16k was the range of my PhD stipend at Imperial College London between 2017-22 (I never got a clear answer what it was supposed to be exactly, from the admin, so I had to estimate it from my monthly pay, which fluctuated). It always stayed below minimum wage (so I didn't have to repay my undergard tuition fee loan). That's normal for PhD stipends, but it really shouldn't be for a lectureship.

I believe what you're thinking of is TA work: "marking lab reports or programming assessments". I did some of that, during my PhD. I don't remember the pay rate but it was less than minimum wage and the jobs were part-time and didn't last for more than a semester obviously. That kind of job is, indeed, ideal when you're looking for "a little side income", but a lectureship is supposed to be your main line job, not a side hustle.

blitzar 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Annual National Minimum Doctoral Stipend, currently £19,237 + £2000 London allowance for 2024/25. Doctoral stipends have been standardised across all the universities for as long as I have known (20+ years).

cherryteastain 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair, Imperial is the best paying UK university by far. Postdoc positions at Imperial pay better than Lecturer/Senior Lecturer positions at other universities.

YeGoblynQueenne a day ago | parent | next [-]

Too bad I only did my PhD in Imperial and my current post-doc elsewhere :)

yunohn 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That may well be, but quite surprising to learn that the best paying university is still paying under minimum wage…

cherryteastain 2 days ago | parent [-]

PhD stipends are technically not classified as income in the UK. As such, they are not subject to minimum wage laws or taxation.

jltsiren 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When I was a postdoc in Cambridge, the problem was that there were too many PhD students and postdocs who wanted to teach. Not because of the compensation but for the experience. A lot of people wanted to try a career in the academia, and they needed teaching experience for that. But there were not enough undergraduates for them all to teach.

anonymousDan 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

FYI you really don't need teaching experience to get a good academic job. The number one criteria is excellent publication record.

shermantanktop 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

That’s an extremely broad statement. Biology, physics, architecture and history are pretty different professional cultures.

oersted1234 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Most UK universities place a lot of value on teaching experience. If you have a PhD degree from Cambridge or Oxford, a decent publication track record and significant teaching experience, you will typically get lectureship (assistant professor) offers straight after you finish your doctoral studies. Some teaching experience will be valued more than having a stellar publication record, especially if you have a good research plan. It makes sense because most lectureships involve at least 40% of teaching and supervision.

Going back to the main topic of this post, using too many underpaid academics to teach creates some perverse incentives that are IMHO destroying Oxbridge. Many professors are no longer teaching. Teaching is a great filter. It makes sure they stay up-to-date, they are technically good and they take pride in their research field. Professors that are really good and passionate, i.e. Terry Tao-like personalities, are often getting displaced by ladder climbers. This is especially common in experimental fields and really disheartening.

YeGoblynQueenne 2 days ago | parent [-]

It depends on what kind of academic work you're looking for, right? If you're going for a teaching career, then yes, of course you need to have some teaching experience. If you're after a research career, e.g. a research fellowship like the ones from the Leverhulme Trust or the Royal Society of Engineering, then you really do need an astounding publication record and I don't reckon that having any teaching experience is going to help you with that.

Not least because in academia, either you teach, or you do research. You can't do both.

>> Teaching is a great filter. It makes sure they stay up-to-date, they are technically good and they take pride in their research field.

If that's your experience, that must be something that depends on the field of research and we must be in different fields. In CS, teaching is indeed a good filter- in the sense that it separates the teachers from the researchers. I have the direct experience of my PI, who has not done a day of research after becoming a lecturer. Because there is no time. Teaching takes so much admin work that there's no time left for research. I mean any above-junior academic position takes too much admin work, but teaching really gets the cookie. My experience so far has been that senior academics who still take an active role in research find ways to avoid teaching like the plague. Although you can't really escape it. You'll at least mark some papers in your subject, whether you like it or not (and with TA-ing from PhDs or not).

oersted1234 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

IMHO, this also applies if you want a research career. At the end of the day, you eventually need a permanent position. Most professors at top UK universities got established in Academia by doing a PhD and getting a lectureship straight after their PhD or sometimes a postdoc. Lectureships demand significant research and teaching and supervision experience.

A high-end fellowship like the ones you mention is also fine if you want to improve your publication track record. In some fields getting a lectureship after your PhD or postdoc might be extremely difficult as the market is too crowded.

YeGoblynQueenne a day ago | parent [-]

>> At the end of the day, you eventually need a permanent position

Yes, unfortunately. I'm not saying it's easy, but from what I can tell it's possible: you can have your entire academic career as a long string of fellowships.

>> Lectureships demand significant research and teaching and supervision experience.

Yes, but we know that in practice what that means is that the professor leaves the research work to their PhDs and post-docs, and then puts their name on it at the end. Sometimes that's because the professor has run out of good ideas, sometimes it's because they don't really care, most of the time it's because their lectureship duties leave them without enough time to do it.

This was not my experience during my PhD, btw, my supervisor (who is retiring next month, three years after supervising my PhD) was an active participant in my research and he had his own totally hands-on line of research that he pursued separately ... and whenever I told people about that they were full of surprise. "Don't tell me that he is still coding?". That sort of thing. People were surprised because that just doesn't happen.

>> In some fields getting a lectureship after your PhD or postdoc might be extremely difficult as the market is too crowded.

I've had an offer that I turned down because it was in China, and a discussion about another in the UK that I didn't even consider. Teaching is the death of a research career, that's what I've seen and I'm not going anywhere near it. What that means I don't know. It's possible that my research career is already over anyway- next week is the last of my post-doc and I don't have anything lined up after it :/

mkl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Not least because in academia, either you teach, or you do research. You can't do both.

This is not true in general. In NZ, most academic positions are 40% research, 40% teaching, and 20% admin. Lecturers, distinguished professors, and everyone in between. Big research grants can provide temporary buy-out of some teaching, but it's explicitly part of the role, and not often reduced completely for long. Maybe 10% of academic roles at my university don't include research.

oersted1234 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, I don't understand that point either as all UK Lecturer job positions I have interviewed for (quite a few!) required at least 40% of teaching.

A 40% teaching is the most research-intensive contract you can get at most universities.

Good departments will still let you enjoy a sane workload because they will allocate a realistic amount of that 40% for teaching preparation, marking duties, etc.

YeGoblynQueenne a day ago | parent [-]

Well, lectureships are teaching jobs, not research jobs, that's my point. I don't think it has anything to do with the department, if you sign a contract that says you have to teach, you're gonna have to teach, however much of your time it takes- and it is going to take up most of your time. Anyway from my point of view, any amount of time you spend on not doing research is a mallus on your productivity as a researcher.

I mean that's why most mid-level and senior academics leave the research to their PhD students and post-docs. Yes? Because they don't have the time to do it themselves.

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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YeGoblynQueenne a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I see what you're saying, but 60% of time spent doing something else than research, is not a research position. That is no way to be productive as a researcher. The upshot of this is what I point out in my other comments, that you end up offloading the research work to PhDs and post-docs while you take the back seat and of course keep the funds coming so that they can do their job.

... although my PI didn't :)

JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> depends on what kind of academic work you're looking for, right?

It depends on where you are. British universities value teaching more than American ones, which are more focussed on research.

YeGoblynQueenne a day ago | parent [-]

I didn't know that, thanks. The article and the OP are about the situation in UK universities.

notahacker 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And different academic jobs can be mostly research or mostly teaching

jltsiren a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Excellent publication record is the baseline. Every serious candidate has it. But if you are not a superstar, research merits alone are not enough. There are enough excellent candidates that universities often use checklists to filter the number of applications to a more manageable level. Why bother considering excellent researchers without teaching experience, when there is no shortage of candidates with similar research merits and some experience?

smogcutter 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I’d presume that as a postdoc they have a pretty good handle on the academic job market and don’t need a one sentence FYI about how it’s important to publish.

anonymousDan 2 days ago | parent [-]

Clearly not if they think they can't get an academic job without substantial teaching experience.

AtlasBarfed 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEmE7IYoLk

Summary: colleges are way too selective today at the high end.

Boomers got into elite schools far more easily, although there were less schools.

It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness".

But the boomer thing is spot on.

alephnerd 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness"

Ehn, it really doesn't.

Harvard admits significantly less undergrads than Penn or Columbia, and in personal experience, the "Ivy" cachet doesn't really help that much in most industries outside of High Finance (which itself tends to targets Penn+Columbia instead of Harvard). Harvard was historically overrepresented in MBB+Management Consulting, but that industry is dying now that Accountancies and Implementation firms are bundling MC, and companies increasingly do strategy in-house.

Prestige is a finicky thing. 30 years ago UChicago was not viewed as "prestigious" compared to Harvard (it was Claremont McKenna with snow back then), but ask high schoolers today and UChicago has a strong brand value.

Also, ime, I just don't bump into Harvard grads anymore at high level positions (Director and above). Harvard historically overindexed on MBB and Boutique Consulting recruiting while Penn+Columbia targeted Wall Street and Stanford+Cal targeted Sand Hill and YC. Consulting slowly started withering away, so recruiting is tough.

That said, Harvard does very well in China (largely thanks to John Fairbanks and Roderick MacFarquhar in the 1970s-90s), but they aren't as driven as UPenn has been in trying to diversify their international presence.

alephnerd 2 days ago | parent [-]

> high level positions

Typo: Meant high level positions in the Tech industry.

HBS tends to do pretty well in PE/HF but the overlap isn't significant with Harvard College.

robocat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Paraphrased: it used to be easier for boomers to get into say the top 2%? I can only guess that the meaning of elite has changed.

Aside: a comment with the word "boomer" in it is usually offensive in my experience. But doing worry, you'll get a different word applied to you when you reach the same age cohort. Disclosure: not a boomer.

There are two types of people in the world: those that split the world into two groups, and those that don't.

YeGoblynQueenne 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

And the third one that can't be placed in any category, let's not forget.

AtlasBarfed 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The boomer generation has done demonstrable environmental social and financial damage to the world.

Why is truth offensive? I'm a leftist, and that attitude is a strong component of the last election result.

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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jvvw 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When I read the article when it came out, I was a bit annoyed that it singled out Oxford as it's the same at all the universities. It's also been that for a long time - I earned comparable amounts as a DPhil student and post-doc teaching at Oxford and another UK university. More recently I've worked as a tutor for The Open University and the pay for that has felt in a similar ballpark once you take into account all the marking and prep you need to do.

When I did it, I had my DPhil grant/post-doc salary and it felt like side money rather than being my 'job' and I was partly doing for the experience, for my CV (good to be able to put 'Lecturer at Oxford' on it!) and partly because I enjoyed it. I felt quite lucky to be offered tutoring jobs at Oxford as they were much sought-after by DPhil students.

I think it's also worth pointing out that not all Oxford colleges are 'rich' and many have buildings and grounds that are expensive to maintain. I don't think most of them are better placed to pay more than other UK universities.

There's an argument to be made that people teaching at universities should be paid more, but it does feel unfair to single out Oxford.

mmooss 2 days ago | parent [-]

> I was a bit annoyed that it singled out Oxford

Oxford singles itself out as elite, thus "good to be able to put 'Lecturer at Oxford' on it [the CV]!". They are being held to that standard.

burnt-resistor 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Living conditions are worse for non-FTEs in America where there isn't the NHS and housing is more expensive.

By contrast, Stanford's FTEs c. 2004 received such benefits as:

- Choices from 9 health insurance plans

- Vision, dental, mental healthcare, and long-term care

- Employer-matched retirement contribution 1:1 up to 5% of salary, plus free 4% of salary

- Access to then closed mutual funds like Fidelity Magellan

- Secret discounts like on luxury vehicles

- Credit union with 0% VISA debit foreign currency exchange rate

- 50% discount on tuition after being an FTE for 10 years

njjnjj 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That has improved. Back in 1998 I was managing £8k a year (!) part time, which was really a full time job, while being told I was privileged to have such a position at a prestigious university. With little experience I didn't know any better.

Woke up one day, said fuck it, pissed off my doctoral advisor, a somewhat rotten old tenured professor by suggesting that it wasn't worth doing this any more. Looked around and picked up a job for £26k within a month. Never looked back.

helsinkiandrew 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Was about to say the same. Haven't PhD students usually done tutorials and supervised labs to undergraduates for the extra cash. Certainly was the case in my electronics undergrad course a few decades ago.

> in 2023-24 one in five tutorials (20%) were taught by hourly-paid tutors – typically PhD students or academics at the start of their career.

njjnjj 2 days ago | parent [-]

Depends on the university. 25 years ago now but a number of the PhD students I worked with had mummy and daddy paying for everything. One enterprising guy had a side business selling cocaine. Most were slumming it in house shares and taking on casual work. Only the blessed had teaching appointments. I was blessed until I realised it was a curse.

helsinkiandrew 2 days ago | parent [-]

I meant that most labs and tutorials were run by PhD students, not that most PhD students had jobs running labs and tutorials.

probably_wrong 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is definitely a bad thing: as a postdoc you have to constantly uproot your life chasing the ever-elusive permanent contract so good luck rebuilding your social circle from scratch every five years. And God help you if you're married or (the horror!) want to have children.

It's also not good for the Universities, who are constantly losing institutional knowledge and having to retrain people from scratch. Did you offer a kickass course on Neural Networks last year? Well, too bad, the guy who offered it is now gone. But here's a fresh guy with a PhD in economics, and that's just as good.

maxmynter95 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who got accepted into an Oxf'd DPhil program, did not get a stipend and had to decline the offer it certainly stings when you say "not necessarily a bad thing".

Because it definitely is a class barrier, and since my spot wasn't filled by someone else, also a lack in research output.

blibble 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

it's portrayed as a bad thing by the union because these phd students doing supervisions/tutorials aren't union members

it really is that simple

phd students love doing supervisions, they literally queue up around the block for the teaching experience and the tax free cash

mmooss 2 days ago | parent [-]

> phd students love doing supervisions, they literally queue up around the block for the teaching experience and the tax free cash

Maybe they have no choice and are being exploited. PhD students current and former that I've spoken to definitely think they are being exploited.

As examples, look at the comments from actual PhD students and postdocs on this page.

blibble 2 days ago | parent [-]

I lived with three of them, they loved doing them

Marsymars 2 days ago | parent [-]

Loving your job isn't mutually exclusive from being exploited. The best job I ever had was in a academic/research-tangential position out of school, but the pay was bad and the effort/reward required for advancement was unreasonable, so I left after a year.

blibble 2 days ago | parent [-]

yeah, they were being paid 3x the minimum wage, and were paid for prep time

vs. the alternative available part time work (sainsburys/tesco)

definitely exploited