| ▲ | GordonS 5 days ago |
| > Keep in mind the conviction rate at ICC is pretty low. My understanding is that's because it's usually difficult to show intent. However, in this case, not only do we have an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes, but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. My biggest concern over this is what the US and/or Mossad will do... |
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| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Usually when people say that they are talking about genocide. War crimes and crimes against humanity may have some intent requirements but they don't have the double intent that genocide has, which is the part that is super difficult to prove. To over simplify (also ianal) with genocide you basically have to prove that the only possible rationale for the action was to try and destroy the protected group and that there is no other plausible explanation. With normal war crimes its more just proving the act wasn't done accidentally. [This is a gross oversimplification] > but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. I don't think that is relavent here, as genocide is not one of the charges. Additionally, that would probably be more relavent to state responsibility for genocide (what the icj decides) and not personal responsibility (what icc has juridsication over). Even for state responsibility, its a bit iffy how much those statements matter if they aren't said by people who have the power to issue orders to the military (they of course matter a lot if the charge is failing to suppress incitement of genocide). I'm not saying its totally irrelavent, it is probably a bit relavent to the prosecution charge, but largely it matters more what the individuals themselves have said as they are being charged in an individual capacity not as agents of the state. Basically the ICC and ICJ are different and what you are saying is more applicable to the ICJ case not the ICC case. |
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| ▲ | tialaramex 4 days ago | parent [-] | | That higher standard sounds similar to "Double reasonableness" from British tax law. "Double reasonableness" is used to delete tax advantages for certain things which you say were correctly exempt from taxation or attracted significant tax advantages but the government alleges you were in fact just generally avoiding paying tax and whatever you were doing doesn't count. It's not a crime to have mistakenly believed you didn't owe tax, but, if a court finds against you, you would now owe the back tax, plus potentially penalties. The "double" comes from a requirement that not only can the reasonable person (say, a juror) not think of any way that what you're doing isn't just avoiding tax, but they can't even imagine any other reasonable person who thinks what you were doing made sense for another reason beside avoiding taxes either. The idea is this only triggers for people who are very obviously dodging tax, so that their scheme sounds completely ludicrous unless it is explained that they hoped to avoid taxation, rather than just being a slightly eccentric thing to do which happened to have tax benefits when they did it. "I buy and sell used cars" makes you a used car dealer. No reason you shouldn't take advantage of used car tax treatments which are a significant benefit. "I let somebody else do all the buying and selling" OK, I guess you just own the business? Nothing wrong with that, small business, entrepreneurship, excellent. "I don't own the business or anything, I just get the advantageous tax treatment". Huh, well it's very good of the people actually doing the transactions to let you benefit while they go without, very generous indeed, but at least you're ensuring a healthy market in used cars. "Oh, there's just one car. That car is just bought and sold over and over again to make up the amount of money I requested". See, now that's ludicrous, why would anybody believe you had some reason to do this except to avoid paying taxes? |
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| ▲ | runarberg 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think they only need to show intent if they are being charged with genocide, however, I think in this case they are being charged with using starvation as a weapon, hindering aid, and targeting hospitals. I think the recommendation also included extermination, which is similar to genocide, but also does not require intent, but I think the voted against that. I think the evidence for the charges which were actually brought forward are pretty strong. I mean we have Gallant on video stating explicitly a policy of starvation, a policy which we have been seeing in action, also on video. |
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| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I think the recommendation also included extermination, which is similar to genocide, but also does not require intent, but I think the voted against that. Persecution is the charge probably most similar to genocide minus a lot of the intent requirements (which was granted). The requirements for extermination (which was rejected) is basically they have to be resposible for > 50 illegal deaths (not sure on the exact number, but somewhere in the double digits). The icc granted the murder charge, which is the lesser version of exterminatin when it is only < 50 ish deaths. | | |
| ▲ | runarberg 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I wonder why they didn’t go forward with the extermination charges then. It shouldn’t be to hard to find evidence of hundreds of illegal deaths. I mean the flour massacre alone has 118+ confirmed deaths back in February. Did the prosecutor simply fail to put forward good enough evidence to convince the judges? Not that it matters the most, the charges they did bring are serious enough. | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I guess its impossible to know given the warrant proceedings are secret. However it seems like the prosecutor was solely presenting deaths related to siege tactics, so essentially deaths by starvation or malnutrition that can be attributed to israeli conduct. It could also simply be what evidence the prosecutor had available to them when they started this process which was a while ago. > I mean the flour massacre alone has 118+ confirmed deaths back in February. These probably wouldn't count as it would be hard to argue that these were directly ordered by the defendents (unless there is evidence of that). Additionally, they maybe also wanted to go with a clear cut case. Israel is claiming that there was a riot and their troops fired only to protect themselves. Even if you find that unconvincing, when this goes to trial the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that version of events is false. Maybe the prosecutor doesn't think there is enough evidence to get to "beyond a reasonable doubt". There is a requirement that "the perpetrator knew that the conduct was part of or intended the conduct to be part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population." So you do need to prove that there was intent to do the killings which might require having evidence it was premeditated (i'm not sure tbh). [Ianal, and im just speculating] |
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| ▲ | Qem 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > but we also have a huge catalogue of Israeli politicians explicitly calling for the genocide of Gaza. There was even a database set to track this large number of genocide calls. See https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-databas... |
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| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | aguaviva 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The effectiveness, and moreover the underlying sincerity of these "warnings" have been widely and severely criticized. Meanwhile, the IDF has gone right on bombing people even when they went to areas they were told would be "safe". At the end of the day -- they're just lip service, basically. Gaza evacuation warnings from IDF contain many errors, BBC finds - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68687749 Israel's warning system and evacuation alerts leave Gaza residents confused - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-21/israel-gaza-map-block... They Were Told They Were in a Safe Area. Then Came the Missiles - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/15/world/middleeast/israel-h... | |
| ▲ | alluro2 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I understand where you're coming from, and the need to put pieces together so that the image of oneself or their identity is acceptable. However, while doing that, you're just ignoring the number of killed people. Unfortunately, there's no way to assemble that kind of image of Israel in this situation, where it's not red in blood of Palestinian civilians. Not to say that it's any different on the other side, and not engaging with any justifications for either side - just pointing out that you're ignoring some large and ugly parts of reality in how you represented your view of the situation. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > However, while doing that, you're just ignoring the number of killed people.
If the number of dead were an issue, then where are the protests about Sudan (60,000 dead)? Yemen (350,000 dead)? Syria (500,000 dead)? | | |
| ▲ | alluro2 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > If the number of dead were an issue is quite a thing to say... We could discuss lack of protests for those countries at length and conclude it's wrong - but how does that change what I said, or what is happening in your country? It's a rather weak deflection... If you're open to being self-inquisitive, notice that I have not taken any side, and have clearly said that it's no different for the other side - so I'm not attacking your identity or country, or you - yet you replied by deflection / offense. To clarify, my goal was to, as a well-intentioned fellow HN dweller, point out that your theoretical justification for actions of Israeli military is not taking into account glaring parts of reality, and it might be good to re-evaluate solely from the perspective of improving one's critical thinking and objectivity. |
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| ▲ | nsomaru 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s not war in terms of international law if it’s internal. Not clear cut that it’s not internal, but there’s nuance. | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The icc warrant claims it is an international armed conflict. This is important, because palestine did not ratify the amendment to the rome statue criminalizing starvation in non-international armed conflict, so that charge goes away if it is just an internal thing as opposed to an international war. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I wonder if that explains the rash of sudden urgency at so many UN offices to recognize Palestine as a state after the war started. |
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| ▲ | cutemonster 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They don't always warn. There's many different people in IDF with different opinions, some want to warn first, others don't. | |
| ▲ | NomDePlum 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ironically the IDF are probably most guilty of making tiktok footage that causes long term damage to people's views of Israelis. | |
| ▲ | runarberg 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The charges in question are that of targeting hospitals and hindering aid from reaching Gaza. Netanyahu and Gallant are being charged with the policy of targeting hospitals and hindering aid. The videos we have of people dying are only related to the crime if they show how hospitals or aid convoys were targeted. Of which we have plenty. For example the flour massacre is only one of many instances of aid being targeted which resulted in hundreds of civilians dying. And the fact the the four massacre was not an isolated incident, but followed a pattern of other links in the aid chain being targeted or otherwise prevented from being delivered to civilians is a very good argument for that this is actually a policy, of which Netanyahu and Gallant are guilty. The charges are not of war crimes, but of crimes against humanity. A war crime is an event which individual soldiers or commanders, or generals are guilty of. Crimes agains humanity is criminal policy which politicians are charged for. | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The charges in question are that of targeting hospitals Is it? All they say that seem relavent to that is two instances of an attack directed at a civilian object (and not from a policy perspective but more from a failing to punish a subordinate perspective). The ICC has not specified if this is about a hospital or not. > The charges are not of war crimes, but of crimes against humanity. Some of the charges are war crimes, others are crimes against humanity. In particular, the use of starvation as a method of war is a war crime not a crime against humanity. > A war crime is an event which individual soldiers or commanders, or generals are guilty of. Crimes agains humanity is criminal policy which politicians are charged for. This is incorrect, civilians who can give orders to the military (e.g. minister of defence or the PM) can be guilty of war crimes. It is also possible for soldiers & generals to commit crimes against humanity. | | | |
| ▲ | maroonblazer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | bbqfog 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's video that comes out every single day of dead children and civilians. Those buildings are civilian and not empty. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | galactus 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Its not a war, its punishment against a whole population because of the actions of a group. | | | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No in most wars children don't die. 70% of the people murdred in Gaza are women and children: https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/09/middleeast/un-warnings-gaza-h... More children have been killed in Gaza than all conflicts combined from the previous 4 years. That's not even touching all of the Palestinians that Israel has murdered prior to Oct 7th. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147512 | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > No in most wars children don't die.
I don't know why you think that. I have a feeling that you live far from war.For what it's worth, quite a few children that I know or whose parents I know were murdered on October 7. Two of them were babies, burned alive, one of those babies was an infant. And a child in my daughter's class was murdered, along with both his sisters (and both parents, too). Shall I go on? | | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | Myrmornis 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 4 days ago | parent [-] | | No, the Israeli military was destroying materiel stored in civilian homes. Unfortunately people lost their homes when that materiel was destroyed. Who do you blame: Israel for destroying the rockets before Hamas shoots them, or Hamas for storing them in civilian infrastructure? I will remind you that Hamas has been shooting these rockets continually at Israel for over a decade. And Israel rarely took the initiative to proactively destroy the rockets stored in homes until this war started. | | |
| ▲ | Myrmornis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's nice that you believe that people in Gaza are living with rockets in their living rooms. I imagine that must make it easier to come to terms with what Israel has done. |
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| ▲ | edanm 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | mandmandam 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I disagree that there is an incredible amount of video evidence of war crimes that are relevant here. You can disagree with the facts all you like; it won't change them. Those videos and statements exist, whether you believe in them or not. You can see them on Twitter, on TikTok, on Instagram, or YouTube. And there's more every single day. |
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