Remix.run Logo
▲ Animats 3 hours ago

Intelligence has evolved on Earth at least three times - mammals, corvids, and octopuses. All the mammals have roughly the same brain architecture. But the corvids are not on the same evolutionary branch, and have a different neuron design and a different brain architecture. "Such behavioral flexibility might seem unexpected because a layered cerebral cortex, the highest integration center in the mammalian brain, is not existant in birds."[1] So there's more than one way to do intelligence. Useful to know for AI purposes.

Octopuses have a much more distributed system than mammals, suggesting a quite different approach is possible.

[1] https://niederlab.org/Nieder%20(2017)%20COBS.pdf

▲Vetch 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You left off Parrots, which are just about as intelligent as Corvids. For example, keas have a similar number of pallial neurons to ravens (or maybe slightly more). Parrots and songbirds generally have extremely high neural density but still lower raw neuron counts compared to primates, which makes their competitiveness in many cognitive tasks interesting.

Among parrots, everyone knows African Greys but cockatoos are also highly intelligent, with goffin's cockatoos the standouts in terms of cleverness.

▲anjel 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

With more intelligence arrives the tendency for neurotic and compulsive behaviors, frontal cortex or not.

▲Sharlin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think you can single out corvids from the rest of the avians and at the same time bunch all mammals together. I don't think there's evidence that their smarts or brain architecture are qualitatively different from other birds, some of which are plenty smart. If intelligence - for some definition of intelligence - evolved separately in mammals and birds, it's not implausible to me that the basic architecture developed before avian dinosaurs branched from other theropods, and some theropods might have been quite smart indeed.

▲singingfish 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bird brains are interesting because they've dealt with a significant chunk of the energy intensity of mammalian brains. Octopus brains are interesting because brains are traditionally energy intensive and top predators are usually long lived. Octopuses have this energy intensive sunk cost but also have a short lifespan.

I wish I understood enough of the appropriate level of neuroscience to get a bit of an understanding of the similarities and differences between bird and other brains.

▲chrisvls 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

I’m a little frustrated with talking about birds as a class in this context. Crows are legendary for figuring things out.

Turkeys are also legendary. Like the farmer brings three of them out, chops the head of the first one off. The other two are still standing there. “Wow! Look what happened to Charley! I wonder what this line is for.”

“Birdbrain” may be wrong for corvids but too complimentary to turkeys.

▲greymalik 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Adrian Tchaikovsky explores each of these kinds of intelligence across his sci-fi Children of Time trilogy.

▲shostack 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, and the third book, Children of a Memory, which features the corvids, is particularly interesting in the age of AI and questioning what intelligence really is.

▲Computer0 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Spiders?

▲Vetch 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Jumping spiders are the geniuses of their size/energy tier. It almost makes no sense that so few neurons should be so capable, but my favorite hypothesis is that nature golf coded a specially tuned, unexpectedly flexible, highly optimized recurrent architecture that sequentially overthinks to simulate a far higher intelligence level than its size profile would suggest.

▲olivermuty 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are written like mammals in this book, just with a different way of comminucating.

Tiger shrimp are also in the picture eventually.

▲shostack 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Cato is actually more of a mantis shrimp.

▲olivermuty 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yeah my bad, at least I had shrimp! I was about to just write punchy shrimp tbf

▲glenstein 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can we count mammals and corvids separately if their common ancestor was already set on the path to intelligence? The amazing book Other Minds by Peter Godfrey Smith hinges it's argument on minds evolving twice, on the fact that the common ancestor of humans and octopi was probably a simple worm-like creature that had little or nothing in the way of a brain or consciousness.

I have to imagine that corvids and mammals had a common ancestor with more working brain structure. Though maybe you can make the case that "intelligence" showing up later on isn't the same thing as simply having a brain.

But it's much more impressive to me that there's convergent evolution from brainless to brain-having, than from brains to intelligent brains. Don't get me wrong, it's still awesome but doesn't feel like an out of nowhere path for natural selection to take.

▲tsimionescu 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

A very important fact to remember is that brains are not a requirement for intelligence (in the very broadest sense, not the more specific one used here), nor even neurons. All cells have some amount of computational power and can meaningfully react to their environment; a common example is white blood cells quickly adapting to pathogens to try to destroy them. Networks of cells are even more powerful, such as slime mould exploring the space around it until it detects nutrients and then channeling all resources in the direction of such nutrients. Plant roots have sophisticated sensory abilities detecting numerous kinds of chemicals in the soil, and actively search for nutrients and avoid contaminants. Even jellyfish, some of the simplest animals, long thought to be essentially passive, in fact detect and actively steer themselves towards prey.

Intelligence actually exists at all levels of life, and brains are just an apex of achievement, just like eyes are an apex achievement of light-sensing mechanisms that similarly exist all around the tree of life.

▲stevenwoo 6 minutes ago | parent [-]

Additionally, both plants and slime mold have been shown to be capable of keeping track of time elapsed in experiments, it’s so cool and bewildering (how this is done as it seems quantitatively different from other automaton like behavior that could be programmed so to speak from a layman’s perspective at least).

▲SoftTalker 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Agree. Birds still have two eyes, two arms, two legs, heart, liver, kidneys, etc. there's clearly a common ancestor after the basic vertebrate anatomy evolved.

▲larodi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

like Siglip, Dino and LFM :D