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▲ jedberg 3 hours ago

It's important to remember that the loopholes are often intentional. They are left there so that rich people who can afford CPAs can take advantage of them, while middle income and poor people cannot afford to.

They are also left there so there is wiggle room for interpretation if it comes in front of an auditor or a judge.

And also, it's important to remember that in tax matters, the final arbiter of interpretation is a judge. Judges are humans, not machines. You can't "Trick" them by saying "well technically this is allowed!". Because they rule on the sprit of the law, not as it was written. Judges aren't amused when you try to be cute with how you interpret a law. And some Judges have biases, where you get a different ruling depending on if you play at their golf club or not.

Laws aren't computer code. They are vague on purpose.

▲rendaw 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've heard this repeated a couple times here on HN. Do you have any citations for laws being vague on purpose? The whole point of laws, and the formal structure they take, is to reduce vagueness. Is this rock on person A's land or person B's land? When it turns out, despite best efforts, that a law is vague we even have a second system to step in and reduce the vagueness further: case law. I have no doubt that people are trying to exploit vagueness on both sides, but naysaying here is nonsense. And almost nobody wants law to be vague either.

▲DannyBee an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Lawyer here (but I don't make any money from it and absolutely have no dog in this fight). I agree. Law is vague for two reasons - first it is often as a compromise between two positions that people were okay having decided on a case by case basis instead of fighting to the death over what to write down. It also is vague sometimes to intentionally capture the spirit of what it is trying to do. While I won't claim vagueness is never left to benefit someone ( I'm sure it happens), I would claim it is rare.

Law is basically a representation of societal judgement. While criminal law is intended to be clear enough to know when you've violated it, that is not the same as beimg logical or consistent. Civil law is even less logical and consistent. Formalizing it into logic generally does not make sense overall - it isn't really broken in most cases because it was never intended to be totally consistent. There are certainly areas that could use cleaner rewriting but courts are generally well equipped to figure out what it means. Congress and the states can always overturn interpretations of law, but the rate at which they rewrite laws because they thought courts interpreted it wrong is very, very low.

▲nonethewiser 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He’s half correct.

They are intentional.

They aren’t loopholes. They are just laws.

Some people just call them loopholes because they dont like them.

▲djoldman an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Much of the US Constitution is vague or "general."

There are quotes from at least Madison, Hamilton, and Jefferson that support the idea that this was intentional.

I do agree with the main point though: laws shouldn't be vague and also case law tends to refine the meaning.

▲bgilroy26 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

All overly broad generalizations are vague on purpose

▲djoldman an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> And also, it's important to remember that in tax matters, the final arbiter of interpretation is a judge. Judges are humans, not machines. You can't "Trick" them by saying "well technically this is allowed!". Because they rule on the sprit of the law, not as it was written. Judges aren't amused when you try to be cute with how you interpret a law. And some Judges have biases, where you get a different ruling depending on if you play at their golf club or not.

> Laws aren't computer code. They are vague on purpose.

Yes... but. Tax law is a bit different because it is similar to an equation: you put in your inputs and you get your outputs.

There have been famous cases where the courts have said in essence, "yes you completely and exactly and precisely followed the law, but we're not going to allow you to do that anyway." Those rulings have become less frequent.

▲pylua 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

The fact that you need a judge to tell you if what you did was wrong is indicative of a flawed system

▲emtel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is ridiculous - first of all you don’t have to be rich to afford a CPA, second of all high earners almost always pay the highest rates (both effective and marginal). And even in the cases where they don’t pay huge marginal rates (dividends and LTCG), they don’t need a CPA to take advantage of that because it’s dead simple.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-in...

▲jedberg 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not talking about a high earner who makes a few hundred thousand a year. I'm talking about the high earner who is making a few million a year and taking advantage of the vague tax laws by paying a CPA tens of thousands of dollars to do their returns for them and then save them a few hundred thousand in taxes.

And yes I'm aware that the wealthy pay most of the taxes. I'm fine with that. I'm just pointing out that these laws are made so they still pay less than they would otherwise.

▲emtel an hour ago | parent | next [-]

It depends on how you are making these millions. A W-2 employee at meta making $1M or more per year is almost certainly paying over 50% marginal tax rates (combined state and federal). And there is virtually nothing you can do to lower that burden by any significant amount.

The tax code benefits certain types of income, but it does not uniformly benefit high earners, as you say.

▲twoodfin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How does that scheme work? Which provisions are you talking about?

▲jedberg 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t know I’m not a CPA. That’s why I hire one. Because the tax code is too complex and vague to do it myself.

▲AnthonyMouse 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Because they rule on the sprit of the law, not as it was written.

I feel like this attitude is responsible for the modern destruction of the rule of law.

It doesn't matter what the law says, the only thing that matters is vibes! And whether you play golf with the right government officials.

> You can't "Trick" them by saying "well technically this is allowed!".

The obvious problem being that sometimes it is allowed. And then do you want that being decided by democratically elected representatives and specified ahead of time so the public can know what's expected of them and of others, or decided ex post facto on the basis of feels and discrimination?

▲well_ackshually 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Because they rule on the sprit of the law, not as it was written.

Extremely funny to say that about US law when it is entirely based on precedent, and a single judge having vibes on a particular day changes how your entire country works for the next 50 years.

US law is explicitly made to be skirted, as is every common law system in the world and they are all irrevocably flawed.