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▲ delta_p_delta_x a day ago

Classifications are useful. Even the 'proper' planets we split into terrestrials, Jovian giants, and ice giants. Each planet is individually interesting in itself. One might even argue all of the bodies in the Solar System exist on a continuum of mass from the tiniest mote of space dust, to rocks and asteroids, to moons and dwarf planets to terrestrial planets, ice giants, giants, and then the Sun, and then hypergiant stars, neutron stars, black holes, and then supermassive black holes, so let's call all of them 'celestial objects'—which we kind of do. But such a catch-all is pointless. Each object behaves very differently, with wildly different physical laws governing its interior and its neighbourhood.

Classifications impose structure on a collection of celestial objects, and we can derive relationships, commonalities, understand their development, the physics governing these objects, and build useful physical and mathematical models to widen our understanding of the universe.

Most reasonable scientists understand that some of these objects will blur the edges—like many moons being more massive and larger than Mercury. Or like the largest super-Earth exoplanets being nearly as massive as Neptune, or the largest gas giant exoplanets being 30-80 times as massive as Jupiter and hence having a surface temperature of ~2000 K. But that is part of science, and possibly even where the most interesting work is.

▲cookingmyserver a day ago | parent | next [-]

Classifications are useful! It is poor form to take a widely used and historic term and add on a whole different (dynamic!!) category of attribute as a filter on the definition. There is quite a bit of absurdity in the 2006 IAU's definition of a planet. If a massive object came into the solar system and perturbed orbits, caused chaos and collisions, then any "planet" with debris within its neighborhood would cease to be a planet. What do we gain from adding a whole different category of attribute (relationship to its neighborhood) as a criterion? Does it realistically outweigh decades or centuries of peoples intuition of the existing definition? Its not just a matter of science, but language and communication. If you want greater specificity, come up with a new term or use compounded terms.

It very much seems like the definition was just shoe-horned to stem any more planets needing to be added. It would be interesting to know if astronomers walk the walk when it comes the definition. If I research when planets were formed would I get the date when their neighborhoods were cleared? Do discussions around large events that send debris into the neighborhood of planets correctly reflect that they cease to be planets until it is cleared?

Alan Stern said it best

>"We're going to call it a cow, except when it's in a herd." A river is a river, independent of whether there are other rivers nearby. In science, we call things what they are based on their attributes, not what they're next to.

>And the IAU definition is even worse, because it produces different categorizations for identical objects, depending on where they are. Get this — Earth at the same distance from the sun [as Pluto] would not be a planet by the IAU’s measure, because Earth can’t clear that zone either. I would say any definition that produces a result where Earth is not a planet under any circumstance is immediately indicted as ridiculous, because one thing we all agree is a planet is planet Earth!

>That's crazy. No wonder teachers and students are frustrated, confused, unhappy. It reflects poorly on astronomy, to have something so illogical.

https://www.space.com/12710-pluto-defender-alan-stern-dwarf-...

▲dotancohen 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

  > because one thing we all agree is a planet is planet Earth!
Of note, the ancient planets did not include Earth. I say this as someone who respects Alan Stern so much that my son is named after one of his projects.
▲roccamoccam 11 hours ago | parent [-]

The Alan Stern's Project, presumably.

▲dotancohen 9 hours ago | parent [-]

New Horizons

▲delta_p_delta_x a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find this interview very interesting, because around a decade prior, Stern himself proposed 'clear the neighbourhood'[1] as a finer-grained rule for planet classification involving the dynamics of the planetary body in question. That is, planets that could clear their neighbourhoods are überplanets; otherwise unterplanets. In fact, near the end of that paper he proposes not two, but five classifications of planets: subdwarf, dwarf, subgiant, giant, and supergiant.

Now, Stern's broader argument in that interview is that we should not take into account the dynamical behaviour of planets. I disagree, especially since dynamics determine the static future state of any given object. Take chthonian planets—former gas giants whose gaseous envelopes have been stripped away by the primary. Do we insist that they are still gas giants? No, we even came up with a name for the transitory period when these planets are losing their gas envelopes.

Personally, I think Stern was being a little more animated to drum up support for and shine a beacon on New Horizons, a then-ongoing mission that he was principal investigator of.

To directly answer your question:

> If a massive object came into the solar system and perturbed orbits, caused chaos and collisions, then any "planet" with debris within its neighborhood would cease to be a planet.

There actually are (multiple) mathematical formulations for 'clearing the neighbourhood'[2]; it's not purely empirical or based on vibes. Stern proposed one in the above-mentioned paper. Jean-Luc Margot suggests several more[3]. I suspect a more universal model will be probabilistic but grounded in celestial mechanics.

> Does it realistically outweigh decades or centuries of peoples intuition of the existing definition?

People's intuition for 'planet' in the centuries before telescopes were invented was 'something that moves against the fixed background of stars'—that is literally the Greek etymon for the English 'planet'. The Sun and Moon used to be a part of the 'classical planets'. We didn't even find the last two (or three) planets in our own Solar System until around two centuries ago. We didn't know about nuclear fusion until 1925, and we didn't know other galaxies existed until similarly recently. We didn't understand the inflationary model of the universe until the 1960s. The first exoplanet was discovered only in 1992.

We have repeatedly and retroactively renamed, retconned, reworked, revamped and rewound scientific definitions and models over and over again. I think planets will be OK.

[1]: https://doi.org/10.1017/S1539299600013289

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearing_the_neighbourhood

[3]: https://doi.org/10.1088/0004-6256/150/6/185

▲kortilla a day ago | parent [-]

> In fact, near the end of that paper he proposes not two, but five classifications of planets: subdwarf, dwarf, subgiant, giant, and supergiant.

Yes, “classifications of planets”. So Pluto would still be a planet. Then if you wanted a more specific modifier you could add it, but it’s still a planet.

▲ksymph a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find it particularly amusing that the IAU definition, in a footnote, expressly declares the eight planets to be what they are. In other words, the true definition for being a planet is to be defined as a planet- so the criteria it gives are entirely superfluous, at least when it comes to our own solar system.

It's clear that they worked backwards from the eight planets to come up with a classification system that fit, but in realizing the problems with the approach, just gave up and created the carve-out.

Also, just as another example of the absurdity of the IAU definition, there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Earth's moon would be a planet under the criteria: it orbits the sun, it's round, and it's massive enough / positioned such that it's capable of clearing its neighborhood.

▲svachalek a day ago | parent [-]

It orbits the Earth rather than the Sun by most conventional definitions of the word, although apparently the IAU doesn't have an official definition of orbit that I can find.

▲anlsh a day ago | parent | next [-]

Well yes, but otoh https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/266426/what-does...

▲ksymph 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's exactly my point. The Moon orbits the Earth in the same way the eight planets are what they are - because enough people say it's that way.

By what 'conventional definition' does the Moon orbit the Earth? Barycenter inside the parent? By that definition Jupiter doesn't orbit the sun. Gravitational pull? The sun exerts twice as much pull on the Moon than the Earth does; the earth just slightly wobbles its path.

▲Lum2 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

« If a massive object came into the solar system and perturbed orbits, caused chaos and collisions, then any "planet" with debris within its neighborhood would cease to be a planet. »

Major impacts on Earth on a regular basis would indeed upset the applecart of planetary taxonomy.

▲jl6 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, regardless of the specific labels, there are clearly interesting and meaningful differences between these things, and it’s worth having vocabulary capable of distinguishing them. The whole universe is a continuum of stuff but it helps to have more than just the word “stuff”.

▲VorpalWay a day ago | parent [-]

Arguably there are just two categories: stuff and not-stuff (aka vacuum). And then you go from intergalactic space (almost entirely not-stuff) via interstellar space (marginally more stuff) through planets and stars up to neutron stars (lots of stuff) to black holes (well, we don't actually know what is inside a black hole exactly, our models break down).

Is this classification useful for everyday life? Not at all, but looking at things from different perspectives for a change can be quite amusing.

▲GolfPopper a day ago | parent [-]

And to paraphrase Douglas Adams, the stuff is basically just a rounding error in the not-stuff. And insofar as there is stuff, it's all stars, with everything else being a rounding error. This is the case in our solar system, which, mass-wise is the Sun, with Jupiter as a rounding error - everything in the Solar System that isn't the Sun is mostly Jupiter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Solar_System_objects_b...

▲skissane a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Classifications are useful.

I wasn't arguing against classification, just that I remain unconvinced that the classification which IAU adopted is superior to the alternatives.

One problem with the IAU definition: it only works for our planetary system, not for exoplanets – with the end result that we have two different definitions of "planet", one for our system, one for everywhere else.

Now, of course, that in part reflects that we have vastly more information about our own system than any other – but, a few centuries or millennia from now, I expect we'll know a lot more about some of those other systems – we will probably have sent probes to explore the nearer ones by then – at which point people (or AIs?) will probably push to unify the two definitions. My own bet is they'll be more likely to unify them by dropping "clear the neighbourhood" from the our-system definition than extending it to apply to other systems. Splitting the common category of "planet" into two subcategories based on "does it clear its neighbourhood" works much better than insisting on two disjoint categories based on that criterion when you have very limited information on where that criterion is met.

▲svachalek a day ago | parent [-]

It doesn't work for exoplanets because part of the definition is orbiting our Sun. But the exoplanet definition would define the same 8 for our star, so I don't really see where the issue is.

▲skissane a day ago | parent [-]

Thought experiment: Suppose we (somehow) discovered an exact replica of our solar system, n light years away; would its counterparts of Ceres and Pluto be classified as exoplanets?