| ▲ | hathawsh a day ago |
| I struggle to understand why data centers are seen as a problem rather than an opportunity. Cities and counties can charge a high property tax to data centers and the residents can benefit. They might even give residents a dividend from the data center property tax. What's wrong with that plan? |
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| ▲ | alistairSH a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| The article discussed this... data centers don't pay for the infrastructure upgrades they need to operate - the majority of that cost gets foisted on the public. They also drive up the wholesale cost of electricity, which means we all pay more for it. Both are solvable with politicians who can be held accountable. But, in many locations, they aren't accountable and can only be trusted to do what's in the interest of their largest donors. That's all ignoring the various other externalities... aesthetics, noise, pollution. But, 100%, if a county/town has an underutilized industrial zone, they should build data centers there. But, it also appears data center developers prefer undeveloped plots. Again, also solvable, but somebody needs to do so. |
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| ▲ | Panoramix a day ago | parent | next [-] | | That's called corruption, it has nothing to do with data centers specifically | | |
| ▲ | cowlevel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This current bout of corruption is about data centers specifically. | |
| ▲ | amelius a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Politicians acting in their own short-term interest is not necessarily called corruption. | | |
| ▲ | xboxnolifes a day ago | parent [-] | | Politicians using their position of power for person gain is the definition of corruption. | | |
| ▲ | amelius a day ago | parent [-] | | But you can only _call_ it that when you can prove it. |
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| ▲ | Timon3 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | If a significant part of the build-out is hurting people due to corruption, what are you actually asking for? Should protesters always make sure to add a footnote mentioning that they're only protesting due to the significant likelihood of negative effects due to corruption? Because if you're asking for them to refocus from data centers to corrupt politicians, I can confidently predict the outcome, and I believe so can you. |
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| ▲ | 10u152 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a regulation problem, not a datacentre problem. In Aus, when anyone makes an application to connect to the electricity network, you get charged for ALL upstream upgrades to service your load. That might mean new powerlines, new substations upstream etc. That both shifts the load onto the DC operator AND moves them to areas where spare capacity is available. Similar thing applies for a water connection. Datacentres still technically drive up spot price for electricity but with the amount of new generation coming online that will even out over time. We're building DCs like crazy here and the average spot price is actually falling. | |
| ▲ | p_l a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | USA appears to have weird inversion from how things could be done, so obvious logical benefits of building datacenters are flipped into negatives - through tax breaks, incoherent infrastructure spending (industrial clients should be effectively subsidizing the infrastructure!) on top of electrical grid that might benefit from being taken behind the barn. Once you get rid of "USA is a specially broken place", you're truly left only with noise pollution, which is workable to deal with and its costs can in fact be taken by developer. Hell, existing industrial zones or ex-factory land is normally preferred elsewhere. | | |
| ▲ | alistairSH a day ago | parent | next [-] | | "USA is a specially broken place" It really is a bizarre place to live... it's both the richest nation in the world, but also uniquely broken in many really sad and confusing ways. Pretty sure unlimited campaign spending (much of it without attribution via dark money) is a major contributor. While not legally bribery, it sure does look like a duck. Not to mention the actual bribery (747s and weddings for Trump being the most obvious examples). | | |
| ▲ | p_l a day ago | parent [-] | | A particular issue is how tax is handled at local government level. On one side the flexibility theoretically allows USA to optimize. In practice... well, not. A lot of the problems can't happen in popular datacenter-buildout areas in Poland because the local government cannot change anything about taxes nor can it give any sort of tax break and the most sweetheart deal thing you could pull is water pricing and that is also hard to sell. Nationwide rules set which government levels get what part of the taxes levied on the datacenter, and because of how what USA would call "property taxes" are calculated, there's considerable pressure for owner of the DC to get paying tenants to pay for them. Even at maximum imaginable tax "optimization", a DC is one of the best RoI things a local government can have in Poland |
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| ▲ | unethical_ban a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree that datacenters should be treated like industrial sites. Most people wouldn't want a micro oil refinery or machining factory put up 300 meters from their house. Regulate datacenters like we would a factory. Require them to account for their inputs and their waste outputs, and prohibit them if noise levels are too high or if a concentration of them affects the local climate through heat waste. EDIT in response to the below comment, since I've been throttled: Noise and heat are outputs of datacenters. | | |
| ▲ | p_l a day ago | parent | next [-] | | While I agree on noise, heat output tends to be comparable with a large shopping mall, and they use way less of all other local resources (assuming they are paying market rates for electricity etc. and not some bribe-level "tax break") Noise requires certain extra investment at building time but can be very much mitigated below 40dB. At mid-scales (12~15 MW usable power) you can have a datacenter pretty much beside residential building and it will be the quieter one. | |
| ▲ | consensus1 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | They have no waste output. |
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| ▲ | pessimizer a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > USA appears to have weird inversion from how things could be done The US has a corruption problem, which is not exceptional - I don't know what place you're comparing the US to that doesn't give the rich money and the right of way where and when they want. People say it's a "race to the bottom" without realizing what that implies. It implies that data centers will simply get deals in localities that will not benefit from data centers if other places demand that they at least pay for themselves. Why would that happen? It happens because it will personally benefit the people who have been charged with making the decision. > Once you get rid of "USA is a specially broken place" Again, compared to who? You think they'll have an easier time in Europe? You think if they want to build them in Peru that the residents will benefit? | | |
| ▲ | vlan0 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you are getting at something here. The benefit piece. The proximity to community. But the society in the US is not structured in a way to make this happen. Municipality is basically a bad word at this point. But imagine localized network, compute, green energy, battery etc. | |
| ▲ | p_l a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because of how certain things are less flexible in many european countries, the required scale of corruption to change the rules the way they apparently are bent in USA specifically on this topic becomes impractical. Note, I am saying specifically on this topic, I am not saying there are no other kinds of grift available. But I have done recently a deep dive and for example in Poland, especially in the area around Warsaw, a high power datacenter is literally one of the best investments you can get, and the only real issue is to force the builder to use certain noise abatement technologies to deal with the low-frequency noise. And while it's a race to the bottom, that does not mean that there are no other variables than price - for example, outside of AI, a large boom in EU datacenter space is due to DORA and NIS2 regulations that place certain requirements on locality and resilience |
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| ▲ | nemomarx a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Any municipality that tries to do this will not get a DC built, and the one next door will promise a 3 year tax abatement or other special privileges to get it instead. It's a race to the bottom thing. You need a coordinated policy to encourage everyone to tax them extra, or to require them to put down money for new electrical infrastructure or so on before they break ground. It would be good to have federal action on that. |
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| ▲ | ethagknight a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Not true in Memphis. The city is reaping massive new tax revenue despite fighting datacenters | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | freetime2 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yep they can definitely provide public benefts to a community. Like in Quincy, Washington where data centers built over the last twenty years have [1]: * Lowered property taxes by 70% by broadening the tax base * Helped fund a new high school, hospital, fire station, water infrastructure improvements, and parks with taxes * Directly created 900 new jobs, and created 4-6 times that number of indirect jobs (this is in a town of about 8,500 - so that's significant). But the data centers have also created headaches for locals like concerns about air pollution, seizing private land under eminent domain to build high voltage power lines, and traffic [2]. So I agree data centers are a potential benefit to a community. But locals should be concerned and getting involved from the early stages to ensure their interests are protected. And vigorous debates, protests, etc should be viewed as part of a healthy democratic process. [1] https://dor.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2025-09/AdoptedTabled... [2] https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2026/jul/26/where-agricult... |
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| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Taxes would be great. If a giant new datacenter meant more money in the coffers for schools, roads, and everything else that is funded by local taxes, then that sounds like something that some places would really like to see. But that's not how it rolls. At least around me, there instead seems to be a pattern of cities and counties of giving datacenter builds tax abatements of multiple decades in length. And unlike something like a hospital or a steel mill or even a warehouse: After the local service industry and trades boom from the initial construction is over with, there's not much else coming out of these places. They don't provide very much in the form of long-term employment positions. And beyond that, it's not like we know what the shape of information technology will be 30 years from now. It's certainly shaped very differently today than it was in 1996. (And yeah, I know. If there were no tax incentives for datacenters in Location A, then they'd just build them in Location B instead. I don't have a problem with this at all, but some folks seem to find that result to be fundamentally unconscionable.) |
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| ▲ | coredog64 a day ago | parent [-] | | Skill issue. This is just some of Loudoun County's report on the positive tax impact of data centers. > Data center revenue has also enabled the Board of Supervisors to fund the needs of Loudoun County Public Schools, including funding budget increases for the schools amounting to tens of millions of dollars year-over-year. This revenue source has also enabled Loudoun County to meet the public safety needs of the community, funding resources for the Sheriff’s Office and Loudoun County Fire and Rescue. Revenue from data centers has also funded many programs and services provided by Loudoun County to the community, including libraries, parks, recreation and community centers, and critical services in the areas of child protection and mental health. The Board of Supervisors has also funded capital improvements, such as schools, roads, bridges, and a broad range of facilities. All of these expenditures were made possible while simultaneously lowering the real property tax rate for homeowners. https://www.loudoun.gov/6409/Tax-Revenues-County-Budget | | |
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| ▲ | sega_sai a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In my understanding, if anything, data centers get tax breaks, rather than increased taxes. |
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| ▲ | dietr1ch a day ago | parent [-] | | tax breaks on top of subsidized infrastructure as the utility companies now invest more in infrastructure and raise the prices for all preexisting clients to pay for it. |
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| ▲ | talmr a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why wouldn’t they search for communities that would charge them the least? And in doing so, we have messed up incentives on both sides of the aisle. Edge compute should be a federal build out IMO. It is considered a matter of national security, right? I could be wrong, so I'm open to discussion. We build data centers everywhere of all sizes and shapes, they’re part of US Dept of Energy. Companies and individuals can operate them, plug into them like self-storage unit business model. They would be powered by advanced nuclear, solar, etc. with loads of build out across the country (energy transmission, maintenance, etc.). Why do we need to have power generation at the source (yes, it is cheaper), when we could do a large scale jobs and infrastructure project out of it that would keep folks employed for GENERATIONS! The demand never ends. It might open up a lot of opportunities to have that level of localized edge compute, and historically speaking our computing and energy requirements have only ever grown. Give as many people (and communities) a stake into the future! Private businesses benefit, since they build new things on top of this infrastructure. People benefit, because maintaining the infrastructure is a cost that's rolled in. Everyone benefits from it directly or indirectly (end users). US Gov could print $1T+ bonds for this, and they would actually pay out in far more ways IMO. |
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| ▲ | pessimizer a day ago | parent [-] | | > Why wouldn’t they search for communities that would charge them the least? They would and they should and that's efficient and good. The problem is corruption. If I go to a sandwich shop and tell them that $12 for a ham sandwich is too high, I can go from sandwich shop to sandwich shop, and eventually I will find one at a quality I can tolerate at a price I'm willing to pay (let's say $6.) But with these corporations and billionaires, we assume that if we ask them to pay $12 for a ham sandwich, or even $6, they'll keep moving until they find a shop that will pay them $12 to take a sandwich. It's simply corruption. What they do is the equivalent of paying the cashier $3 to give them the sandwich and $12 from the till. They're shopping for the cashier that is willing to do it. |
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| ▲ | __MatrixMan__ a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Money is made up. Access to water and clean air are real. |
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| ▲ | tcdent a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Furthermore, why is it assumed that as power demand and capacity rises, that prices would rise? In every other market prices drop at scale. |
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| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | When demand increases and supply remains static, prices go up. Supply capacity improvements are incentivized by this price increase. (If the incentive to improve supply capacity were present at the current price level, then those improvements would already be underway regardless of whether the world had ever seen a datacenter or not.) | |
| ▲ | toast0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In every other market prices drop at scale. Markets based on supply and demand all work like this. Increased demand results in the market price increasing. Electricity demand eventually becomes fuel demand, which has the same thing: more demand results in increased prices for fuel. Since fuels are broadly substitutable in electricity generation, all fuels increase in price when there's (significant) additional demand for electricity and that tends to increase prices of everything with a significant energy component. | |
| ▲ | LorenPechtel a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The problem isn't one of scale, but one of paying for the increased infrastructure. It gets passed along to all customers, not only the ones that caused the increased demand. Eventually you would expect a lower price, but that's long down the road. In the short run increased demand drives up the price. | |
| ▲ | SamBam a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because data centers don't operate in the free market, they work on incentives and public funds given by cities and states. |
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| ▲ | WokeUp420 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Pollution, resources and increased utility costs to name a few. |
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| ▲ | BeetleB a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Cities and counties can charge a high property tax to data centers and the residents can benefit. My city has had issues with data centers since prior to the whole LLM craze. The reason? They gave them tax breaks, and later on the town discovered they employ almost nobody. For the amount of land they took up, they give very little back to the community - both in taxes and in employment. It's understandable that residents would prefer the land be used for just about anything else. Even a pollution generating plant. |
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| ▲ | Almondsetat a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >I struggle to understand why data centers are seen as a problem rather than an opportunity. Data centers require very little personnel to operate. It chugs a ton of water and electricity while polluting acoustically the surrounding area and basically bringing no jobs |
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| ▲ | curt15 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You wouldn't mind listening to this 24/7? https://youtube.com/shorts/EVh2jkuGYps?si=YRxda9gb_wjdhKIv |
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| ▲ | InsidiousWombat a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And why pray tell the datacenter would move to the city that tries to charge them that? ~~bribing~~ lobbying also can do away with the extra money that they should pay |
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| ▲ | darth_avocado a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Do you want a costco right next to your house? I believe you could do the same with a Costco, property tax, employment, yada yada |
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| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, I would. In the scope of giant corpo entities, Costco seems like they'd be a decent-enough neighbor to have. They keep short hours: The earliest they're open for regular knuckle-draggers and ruffians is 9:30AM. They're never open after 8:30PM. On weekends, they wrap up by 6:00 or 7:00PM. Last time I went to Costco, I parked over by the edge of the lot by fences with single-family homes behind them. It was a busy time of day, but it seemed quiet enough. I remember thinking to myself, "Self, if I lived there, then the first thing I'd do is install a gate in that fence so I could just walk over to Costco." And I've certainly lived in much noisier neighborhoods with far fewer opportunities to walk around and conduct commerce. I'll take the noise of Costco parking lot traffic over that of a congested 5-way city intersection any day. Living on a steady diet of $1.50 all-beef hot dogs (with a Coke (with refill!)) probably wouldn't be the healthiest way, but I think I'd find a balance somehow. | | |
| ▲ | darth_avocado a day ago | parent [-] | | The realities of living next to a Costco are a lot different than what you describe here. You don’t seem to realize that semis will keep coming over beyond the hours you describe, the pollution, noise and traffic is way higher than what you describe here and just walking over to Costco sounds nice for a minute but then you realize that it’s huge waste of time to go for smaller shopping trips, and you won’t be making larger trips all the time. You need to have a much more honest take than this and mention the real downsides if you’re going to say you’ll do it. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent [-] | | My current abode is very near to a US highway with heavy truck traffic, a flour mill, and two busy freight rail lines. Some mornings, everything outside is covered in a dusting of white powder. I keep the windows closed most of the time even in fair weather not because I hate the outdoors, but because the noise is stifling. The road does calm down late at night, and then the grain trucks begin roaring again promptly at 0400. The trains only sleep on holidays. And yet: I've resided in noisier places than even this. Living right next to a Costco and being able to walk over for a hot dog sounds like a fucking dreamscape by comparison and this is a comparison that I feel I'm qualified to make. And, sure: Costco isn't everything, and I often want only one can of crushed tomatoes today -- not 12. But adjacent to the parking lot of the same Costco I was referring to earlier is a nice medium-sized grocery store. There's a coffee shop on the corner. A little further out is a Home Depot and an Asian market, along with quick access to an interstate highway for the things that the neighborhood doesn't provide for. | | |
| ▲ | darth_avocado a day ago | parent [-] | | Okay, so what you’re describing is a living condition that is worse than living next to a Costco, and therefore would be okay living next to one, which is fair. Is there a reason why you chose to live exactly where you live, and given an option, would you move to a different place that don’t have the same problems as the current one? What I’m trying to get at is that while we talk about establishing a new datacenter or Costco or a rail line or a freeway, it often makes the living conditions worse for a group of people than what they live in. Understandably, this is the reason why people do not support them, even if, there was a little more money to be made. I for example would rather pay my full property taxes, than have the air quality, traffic, noise etc. get worse in my neighborhood in exchange for a discount on my taxes. And I’m not in an affluent neighborhood. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent [-] | | > Is there a reason why you chose to live exactly where you live Sure. Financial reasons are on the surface, but finances are limited by my ability to make my brain work both normally-enough and regularly-enough to satisfy typical employment obligations. Maybe some of this could be alleviated with the availability of better healthcare and healthcare management. And while I'm very proficient at some very complex things, I'm a demonstrated failure at many things that others find easy or basic. Maybe a life coach would be useful (but I can't afford that, either, even if I encabulate the expense as an investment with certainty of positive return). I make too much money to get meaningful assistance with any of that and nowhere near enough money to move to a quieter neighborhood. Resultingly, I don't get to choose where to live with any meaningful capacity. The best I can do is seize opportunities when they avail themselves. The most-recent opportunity brought me to a nice-enough home with lots of indoor space for projects and my own noisemaking, with a decent-sized garage (which is useless for parking in, but whatever). It's in a very loud neighborhood in a small town, but it's what I've been able to sustain in recent years. It's cheaper than an apartment with neighbors left, right, up, and down. There's a bodega nearby and I can walk there in a couple of minutes. I like the place well-enough, but everything they have (other than addictive things like smokes, beer, and soda) is alarmingly expensive. There's also Kroger that is a good bit further out than I'd prefer to walk with groceries, but it exists. Everything else of meaningful report is in another city. > given an option, would you move to a different place that don’t have the same problems as the current one? Yeah, I sure would. Some previous person decided that this house needed lots of windows added, and they're decent-enough windows but they leak noise even when closed and latched. I'm listening to trucks roll by with the Jake break blubbing loudly right now as I write this, interspersed with the sounds of would-be race cars with gutted [whether intentionally or unintentionally] exhaust systems and occasional periods of relative silence. Except for the hammering. That starts early in the morning and extends until 10:00PM or sometimes later. As I understand it, there's some kind of conveyor that gets stuffed up at the mill and hammering on it (sometimes, ceaselessly) seems like the primary method of keeping it going. Except when they use pneumatic vibrators, instead: Those klaxon-sounding devices come and go in their use periodically. I think they wear them out quickly, and I also think that I've heard them degrade and wear-out in real time. My tolerance for noise is obviously very well-honed, but it would be nice if it weren't quite so fucking loud outside. The edge of a Costco parking lot wins on quietness in this way, by a wide margin. > What I’m trying to get at is that while we talk about establishing a new datacenter or Costco or a rail line or a freeway, it often makes the living conditions worse for a group of people than what they live in. According to my homework, this house was built well after the mill was introduced, and just after the US highway became a deliberate 4-lane concrete-paved monster that ran through the town. Previous to all of that, and the land being divided up to build many somewhat-big houses on very small lots, it was farmland -- or at least, farmland-adjacent. Things changed. They didn't necessarily change in the normal order, but they changed. That particular Costco, too: That area was a center of commerce. It was gridded with residential subdivisions and cul-de-sacs and a proper school, but it was also commercial. There was a mall in that neighborhood. And that mall didn't stand forever, but the folks who really remember a time before it was present are mostly dead by now. I regularly drive through an area of my own hometown with largely-isolated residential neighborhoods that were constructed because the recently-constructed mall [which is gone now] was nearby along with jobs at a plant a few blocks away [also gone] that made vacuum components before transitioning to semiconductors. My own grandfather played a part in developing much of that housing, largely to the exception of the parts that were instead developed by my own old friend's competing grandfather. > Understandably, this is the reason why people do not support them, even if, there was a little more money to be made. I can understand how people would feel that way, but I'm still all-in on living right next to a Costco. Seriously. A datacenter of the type under discussion: Not so much. If it could manage to be quiet then it'd be kinda-sorta-fine, except they're also enormous and loud (cooling, gas turbines, etc). I can't walk into a datacenter as I walk and buy a hotdog on my little jaunt to Home Depot to get some lag screws before hitting the Asian market to refill on cheap bamboo chopsticks, canned fish, and red bananas. The proximity of the datacenter presents only an obstacle to me on my path. It's not a big deal in a car at 35MPH, but it's tiresome as a pedestrian to spend time walking past immense, boring things. The mind wants to engage with something, and there's nothing positive around to engage with while focused on circumnavigating a datacenter. > I for example would rather pay my full property taxes, than have the air quality, traffic, noise etc. get worse in my neighborhood in exchange for a discount on my taxes. And I’m not in an affluent neighborhood. That's a reasonable take on datacenters, but: I think you should reconsider this Costco thing that we've been discussing. :) |
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| ▲ | Toynbeeidea a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Actually, yes, I do. That would be very convenient. Then again, I'm a city dweller. My grocery store is one block over, I literally just walk there with a fold-up wagon. | |
| ▲ | Octoth0rpe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I would derive direct and tangible value from a costco nextdoor, not so from a datacenter. | |
| ▲ | tjwebbnorfolk a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Costco is currently the only business I buy from regularly that I don't have within walking distance. So yes I would love one near me. | | |
| ▲ | darth_avocado a day ago | parent [-] | | Not near you, over the fence, next door. Because a lot of people agree to a lot of things until it’s next door to them. |
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| ▲ | 10111001 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I struggle to understand why data centers are seen as a problem rather than an opportunity. There are many reasons to oppose data centers, and not all of them have to do with data centers themselves. For instance: a lot of people don't want AI-driven changes to society tech leaders have decided foist on them. Data centers are the infrastructure for those changes, and a point of leverage against them. E.g. an agent can't take your job if your employer can't afford the tokens due to a data center shortage. > Cities and counties can charge a high property tax to data centers and the residents can benefit. They might even give residents a dividend from the data center property tax. What's wrong with that plan? There's race-to-the-bottom competition as well as skill/experience asymmetry between the local governments and the data center builders. "If you don't give me a tax break, I'll just fine someone who will give it to me. Isn't it better to get a modest benefit than none at all?" |
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| ▲ | carabiner a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's exactly what the newly elected Democrat congressmen are proposing. Right now, it's the opposite where they get tax breaks, reap resources (electricity, water), while providing zero benefits to the local communities (jobs or funding). |
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| ▲ | verdverm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What's wrong with that plan? It's about more than money. People live in rural areas for reasons and data centers are rather antithetical to them. If you want to know details, listen to those people |
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| ▲ | cowlevel a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They don't. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes it's a huge job creation/economics boon as well. The data centers are injecting a lot of money into local economies (many of which have been shrinking) and providing skilled jobs. |
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| ▲ | jltsiren a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The actual issue is that they don't. A 100 MW steel mill might employ ~1000 people and contribute ~$1 billion/year to the economy. A 100 MW data center doesn't need that many people even during construction, and its economic contributions are attributed to the location of corporate offices. As far as local people are concerned, any other use for the electricity would be more valuable than a remotely owned data center. | | |
| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah well they aren't building steel mills in rural Texas/Louisiana/etc so this is what we have to work with. | | |
| ▲ | lenerdenator a day ago | parent [-] | | Well, it's arguably making things worse in rural Texas/Louisiana/etc., so I don't blame them for not wanting the data centers. Understand that if the data center developers had not been so cartoonishly exploitative in their deal making in these municipalities nationwide, there really wouldn't be that much pushback. NIMBY stuff ultimately gets built all the time, usually because the money offered is just too good. Instead of using their massive amounts of capital, they struck backroom deals with local politicians to get tax credits, pass along infrastructure costs to other parties, and otherwise financially burden the community. They had the money to go in and do all of this stuff without involving the public beyond the usual permitting processes; they just thought themselves too important to be burdened with having to spend money to make money. It's the "cult of the founder" mindset in action at the infrastructure policy level. |
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| ▲ | limagnolia a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Got any examples of 100 MW steel mills and 100 MW Datacenters that you are comparing here? Would love to see some real side by sides if you actually have any data? | | |
| ▲ | jltsiren a day ago | parent [-] | | I took the steel mill example from a comparison I made in a Finnish context. Outokumpu's steel mill in Tornio employs ~2000 people directly, plus an unknown number of subcontractors. Its revenues have varied between €3.5 billion/year and €7 billion/year recently, and its average power consumption is ~400 MW. Nebius is currently building a 310 MW data center in Lappeenranta. The construction phase employs ~700 people, and the finished data center is expected to have ~100 employees. |
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| ▲ | haunter a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Yes it's a huge job creation/economics boon as well Is it though? Maybe the construction itself but after that running a data center doesn't need that many on-premise people, like it can be in the two digit range which is not a lot at all. And even then on-premise people won't be the highest paid engineer jobs but rather security and technicians. | | |
| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost a day ago | parent [-] | | Two digit range is a lot of people in a rural area with a couple thousand residents. That's probably a double digit % increase in jobs in that community. |
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| ▲ | toast0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Datacenters certainly provide many construction jobs during that phase of the project. During normal operations though, you would have a handful of technicians, probably a facilities manager and frequent contractor visits, probably onsite security. The facilities contractors may come from far away for maintenance projects, so maybe you help support local hospitality businesses. Most of the highly paid work at the datacenter will happen remotely. Every so often, there will be a hardware refresh, but you probably bring in people from elsewhere to do those, if it doesn't make sense to have the onsite techs do it little by little. Certainly, there's a lot of equipment installed, and any locality with property tax on business equipment should get value from that. But otherwise, almost any other light industrial business would have more employees. | | |
| ▲ | detourdog a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The construction jobs are likely not local but migrant construction workers. The restaurants and hotels my see a bump during construction. | | |
| ▲ | goatlover a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm guessing DHS won't be conducting any ICE raids if it's a data center. | | |
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| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Go check out how many people live in some of these places and how many jobs there are. Even 20 additional tech jobs is a massive boost to these areas. |
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| ▲ | retwakm4 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It is actually terrible at job creation. Data centers don't create many jobs at all, and you could argue through second and third order effects that they are job destroyers. Data centers simply don't require very many people to operate. | | |
| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost a day ago | parent [-] | | Job destroyers where? Maybe in the glass towers of NYC and SF and elsewhere. Creating even a few dozen jobs in rural communities is a massive improvement and boost to the local economy. |
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| ▲ | engeljohnb a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You say so. All I know is rent nearly doubled in my area as soon as construction on the data center began. If that's a what a boon to the economy looks like, I'm not interested. |
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| ▲ | 233mhz a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > What's wrong with that plan? Well, that's not the plan. The plan is massive tax cut, infrastructure built with public money and... that's it! |