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▲ brookst a day ago

From my perspective, the bad actors are the corporations and greedy people who turned copyright into a perpetual rent on IP. If copyright terms and IP laws were reasonable, I'd be 100% with you. But the idea that a novel written in 1940 is still not public domain, just so the heirs (or more likely, corporate purchasers of the rights) can continue to profit on a work that was itself but on the shoulders of thousands of years of civilization? Screw that.

The Walt Disneys of the world screwed themselves on this one. If copyright was still the 20+20 it started as, and if the bulk of people being "stolen" from (don't get me started on using theft to refer to IP), then I think most people would be much more up in arms over the AI industry.

But, in a world with sane copyright laws, perhaps AI companies would have different approaches. Today, if they want anything after 1930, they're either breaking laws or in uncharted territory.

And siloing our knowledge is a silly response even if you are a copyright maximalist.

▲vohk a day ago | parent | next [-]

I have no patience or sympathy for the Elseviers and Disneys of the world, and I agree the endless copyright extensions are terrible, but multiple things can be bad at once. Tearing down a bad system doesn't guarantee a better outcome will result. Even if we accept that those systems need drastic reform, the billions of authors, artists, musicians, programmers, and creators of all stripes still deserve more than just the pride and satisfaction of having made AI companies rich.

I'm also not arguing that siloing is good, only that it's a rational reaction. Creators are uncomfortable having their work used that way and have to protect themselves against scrapers driving up their hosting costs. Other businesses quite reasonably want a share of all the money flowing around. People got tired of the wolves eating their sheep, so they built barns and fences and trained dogs.

If we want to stop the siloing, we need to address the what's causing people to resort to it.

▲brookst 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I agree with your conclusion, but it looks like our views of “what’s causing it” are exact opposites. We made it 30,000 years with creators having “just the pride of creation”. I’m deeply skeptical that the IP monetization regime of the past 100 years is the natural state of things.

▲jlg23 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> We made it 30,000 years with creators having “just the pride of creation”.

The pride of creation and either someone who funded their work or income generated by their work. I can think of quite a few creators who died impoverished and only became famous after their death but I am not aware of any creator who lived well on "just the pride of creation".

▲bunderbunder 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We made it 30,000 years without AI scrapers being able to forcibly extract money from creators’ wallets by using swarms of bots to drive up their hosting costs.

▲rubikscube09 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

we made it 30,000 years with the best known creators having guilds, royal patronage, or inheritances.

▲41353aab 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲GolfPopper a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is all fine and dandy, but the scrapers aren't looting IP for the public good, they're looting it so they can make a profit. It's the class of people and organizations who were already benefitting from broken copyright ignoring the rules themselves, to the detriment of the countless individuals who kept our creativity going.

▲nl 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's ok to be paid while spreading knowledge!

Universities do it, Google search does it, broadcasters do it.

The only place that doesn't really do it is public libraries, which are all subsidized either by governments or donations.

▲voidhorse 13 hours ago | parent [-]

That's all well and good, until the theft and spread of knowledge leaves you permanently unemployed.

Because agents can do labor this is more than just "knowledge sharing". It undercuts human labor power and allows for even grosser concentration of capital.

▲xp84 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The intent of the people who built the railroad across America was to seek profit. So too for most of the important vaccines (shout out to Jonas Salk though, absolute mensch who chose not to). Same for many technologies. That doesn’t change the fact that there were massive benefits to millions of others from having those things exist.

Just because AI companies have profit motives doesn’t mean it isn’t cool as heck that some poor kid with a burner Android phone can use a free ChatGPT account to learn about any topic they want.

▲qotgalaxy 16 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

▲engineer_22 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> they're looting it so they can make a profit

If they're making a profit, it means they're providing a value to customers. In the case of LLM - the value is reducing the friction of accessing knowledge. The knowledge was there all along, but the friction of access too great to generate surplus value.

It is backwards thinking to propose that we are worse off by enabling access to knowledge.

▲sumeno 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can justify any manner of unethical behavior if your bar for ethics is "they're making a profit"

▲hirako2000 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they are making a profit.

But that's right, the side effect is that it reduced friction. The most benefit I get from LLMs when I treat them as search engines.

▲GolfPopper 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>If they're making a profit, it means they're providing a value to customers.

Like Alaric, Temujin, Teach, and Burham!

▲fwlr a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You know what will fix all this corporate greed overzealously enforcing intellectual property laws? An equal amount of corporate greed brazenly violating intellectual property laws!

To put it visually:

         selfless humans | corpo greed
                         |
  enforce IP    good ____|____ bad
  violate IP   better    |     bad
ie the valence regarding intellectual property is irrelevant for this kind of motivation.
▲ZenoArrows 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And apparently this draconian copyright law was no problem for decades when it protected the business interests of large corporations.

But now that it's individual creators that need protection suddenly copyright law needs to be reformed to serve the interests of large corporations once more. What a scam.

▲throwaway81523 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Besides the copyrights there is also the matter of the techbros DDOS'ing the entire web with unthrottled scrapers. Aaron Swartz was prosecuted for that but nobody shook a finger at the bros.