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▲ legitster 7 hours ago

> The act was designed to restore competition, but it was loosely worded and failed to define such critical terms as "trust," "combination," "conspiracy," and "monopoly." Five years later, the Supreme Court dismantled the act in United States v. E. C. Knight Company (1895). The Court ruled that the American Sugar Refining Company, one of the defendants in the case, had not violated the law even though the company controlled about 98% of all sugar refining in the United States. The Supreme Court reasoned that the company’s control of manufacture did not constitute a control of trade.

The reality is that the law itself was not very well written, and takes an extremely litigious executive branch to do anything with.

Even if you agreed with the premise (the idea that Standard Oil arose purely through conspiracy is clearly wrong), it's ultimately a very ticky tacky set of definitions and has failed to achieve anything meaningfully as policy (do we actually feel strongly that breaking Microsoft's productivity suite from their OS division was really worth all the effort?)

(The notable exceptions being actual illegal coordination - like was recently uncovered in the egg industry. But these have more to do with price fixing amongst competitors and less with actual Trusts/Monopolies)

The only practical way that countries have tackled monopolies has been to write legislation that specifically puts oversight on that industry.

▲Animats 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's what the article says. But Knight was mostly overturned by Swift. Wikipedia has a decent overview of US antitrust law.[1] The ongoing question is the extent to which courts and the Justice Department should look at the economic implications of sheer size.

If you just grow to being #1 without acquiring your big competitors, that's generally OK in the US. It's competition, not collusion. Google never acquired Yahoo or Bing. Facebook never acquired Myspace or Twitter. So there was no key merger to block.

European Union antitrust policy is based more on the goal of having several major competitors, so there's price competition. An EU study indicates that, below four competitors, the leaders tend to implicitly collude. But in industries with strong network effects, it's hard to have many big competitors.

A modern summary from a law firm: [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_antitrust_law

[2] https://www.arnoldporter.com/en/perspectives/publications/20...

▲arlattimore 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Facebook never acquired Myspace or Twitter

They did acquire Instagram & Whatsapp, which their internal communications show was to block competition of a credible threat despite clever legal maneuvering to have the FTC antitrust case dismissed.

▲legitster 5 hours ago | parent [-]

This is also where a lot of it gets ticky tacky. The difference between being anti-competitive and acting competitively against a credible threat is often in the eye of the beholder.

▲collinmcnulty 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Acting competitively is releasing a competing feature of your product (e.g. Reels vs TikTok). Anti-competitive is buying off the competition (buying Instagram). I don't see how this is a complicated definition.

▲arlattimore 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There are plenty of acquisitions which I think are competitive, but the market conditions are the critical evaluation point.

Where this breaks down & this is something that the FTC needs to learn from the past (poor in retrospect) approvals and redress in the future is who the acquiring company is and how quickly they could bring something to scale which would stifle future competition.

When facebook acquired Instagram, it has ~900M MAUs and Instagram had ~30M MAUs (3-5M in just the last month or two before acquisition, accelerating very quickly). By facebook's own account their MAUs and growth rate was considered a threat, so they acquired them to remove the threat. Fast forward 14 years, Instagram has 3b MAUs and displacing them is going to be __very hard__.

If you were to apply that same retrospecitive lens to Google, they've been able to acquire Google Analytics, YouTube, DoubleClick, Android, Google Maps and others to take them to hyper scale, completely dominate a particular product space because of their existing massive user base.

Not an easy job for the FTC to get right, but (in my opinion), it is clear that the FTC have been acting on an incomplete understanding of how hyper scale companies operate, how they can influence a market with their user base etc.

▲SaltyBackendGuy 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Help me understand how acquiring them is acting competitively? There's always grey area for sure, but it's hard for me to understand how that would be good for a competitive market.

▲legitster 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Myspace didn't expand into new markets and got left behind. FB was legitimately worried they were going to be left behind too.

There's an alternate reality where Facebook fell off, and Instagram never monetized and died like the dozen other competitors it had.

If it was as easy as "industry consolidation is bad" we could write simple legislation to make it illegal for a company to buy another company - but there are too many counter-examples where the alternatives to acquisition is worse.

▲roenxi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In any market there are an appropriate number of sellers. If you think about it in terms of balance equations there have to be exactly as many sellers as there are buyers at a given price and any want-to-be sellers who aren't competitive at that price are eventually forced out of the market through bankruptcy because they can't sell and run out of reserves to hold on. There are no guarantees on how many sellers a market wants. Some markets it is thousands, some tens, some just 1. The number also fluctuates continuously in ways too complicated to model.

Acquiring a competitor is acting competitively if the natural market number of sellers is N and there are currently N+1 sellers. Someone is going bust and it is better for the assets and whatnot to be reorganised quickly rather than waiting for bankruptcy to force everyone's hand and cause a disorderly change.

A fun lens to look at Animat's comment upthread is that if the EU was trying to force more sellers than a software market can handle, then we'd expect them all to be weak and the EU might be unable to compete in software because they'd be too small.

▲limagnolia 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I simply don't see Instagram and Facebook as competitive products. You could look at the advertising side, but there are tons of advertising companies. Whatsapp is more directly competitive to Meta Messenger (though that product was pretty different when Meta acquired Whatsapp), but again, in the US, messaging apps are a dime a dozen.

If we are looking solely at antitrust, there are a lot of companies- and a lot of tech companies- that are far worse than Meta.

▲cryptonector 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In practice it's hard to avoid having one, two, or three top players. The market tends to invite disruptors soon enough unless really underhanded things are done to keep them out, but in the meantime the situation can be unpleasant anyway. I'm not sure there is much of a fix, not least because it's difficult to define in law behaviors that are anti-competitive -- we all know them when we see them, but defining them ain't easy.

▲jscd 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I definitely agree that the law was not written with clarity in mind. On the one hand, that gives flexibility to those companies which might try to skirt legislation through technicality, but it bites the other way too, in that the executive needs to be very willing to enforce and defend its enforcement.

I wholly disagree that it failed to achieve anything meaningfully as policy, though. Under Sherman AT&T was split, which, before the baby bells all merged back together to create the present oligopoly, provided a much more competitive landscape for the telecom industry. And who knows what we would have seen if the original Microsoft decision was held up calling for a break up, instead of the neutered decision we saw come out of their appeal.

▲hypercube33 4 hours ago | parent [-]

ATT split itself so it wouldn't be bound by the government - they had a lot tech they wanted to put into use they weren't allowed to and they could pick and choose what to shed (like pots lines) that wasn't making as much money.

▲readthenotes1 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is a surprisingly high amount of legislation that seems shockingly poorly written unless one thought that as a feature rather than an bug.

E.g., while the 25th amendment prohibits someone from being elected president more than twice, it does not prohibit succession into presidency, such as by becoming the Speaker of the House (which position does not require one being a US Representative in the House) and President and Vice President resigning. That may seem unlikely or an outlier but on a site like hackers news, I would assume that we would relish the outliers that have bedeviled our software career

▲pavlov 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>”do we actually feel strongly that breaking Microsoft's productivity suite from their OS division was really worth all the effort?”

The antitrust attention distracted Microsoft so badly in the early 2000s that it completely gimped their ability to leverage Internet Explorer’s dominance, thus opening the door for new browsers like Firefox (née Firebird) and Chrome.

So yes, it was actually critical in creating the conditions for an open Web 2.0.

It wasn’t just the US antitrust of the late 1990s, but the EU also had their own legal challenge that targeted IE specifically. This doesn’t get enough credit IMO — the combination was powerful enough to break Microsoft’s hold on the market. Of course SV libertarian types would prefer to write it out of history and say the market sorted this one out on its own.

(Kids these days don’t remember when Mac OS X shipped with Internet Explorer as the only browser…)

▲Refreeze5224 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The only practical way that countries have tackled monopolies has been to write legislation that specifically puts oversight on that industry.

I'm reminded of what that notorious old socialist Adam Smith said about this:

“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”

▲jauntywundrkind 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Good to see continuing evidence that the supreme Court continues to be an injust violent tool against the American people, a sad perpetrated of plutocracy.