For purchases, the US has debit cards and Zelle. Banks instantly exchange non-revocable promises to pay and the money follows at the end of the day. This is more capital (cash) efficient because it allows netting. One key here is that everybody in the US banking system is under the same regulators (Federal Reserve, FDIC/NCUA) so there's greater trust that they won't go under before the cash comes.

A very important point is that debit cards offer consumer protections (chargebacks for unsatisfactory goods). FedNow, Zelle, wires, ACH do not and people have lost money by scams this way.

If you don't need it right that second, same-day ACH is widely used, and again the delay allows more efficient netting.

The Clearing House's CHIPS is a good in-between, it's not guaranteed instant, but uses an algorithm to match transactions as fast as possible with constrained float.

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rancar2 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Instant for USA banks doesn’t mean instant for USA banking customers, and deposits can be held per fed and banking policies for variety of reasons especially larger deposits. Also, it’s increasingly common to have financial routing intermediaries playing by different rules and non-insured financial accounts that result in no coverage when the money is spent/lost elsewhere and not returned to end customers. Take a look at Zelle case in New York and the nearly $100M customer funds missing with the Synapse bankruptcy.

My point is that these properly designed national systems should also be considered in the USA as well, and not dismissed because something is kind of working right now with a long list of exceptions to a good and safe experience.

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QGQBGdeZREunxLe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I want to send money between accounts I own in real time. I want to deposit money in brokerage accounts in real time. I want to stop connecting my accounts to services like Wise to make money transfers. I want to pay off a credit card and have that payment clear instantly. FedNow could enable all of this.

Purchases are an afterthought. A system like Brazil's Pix could be rolled out on top of FedNow.

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sam1714 4 hours ago | parent [-]

>I want to pay off a credit card and have that payment clear instantly.

Why? At least 2/3 of my cards do same-day ACH (the other is at the same bank, so I can't tell), so the transaction clears in hours. The point of a large credit limit (supposed to be at least 3x normal spend) is so that it doesn't matter anyway.

>FedNow could enable all of this.

Clearing House's RTP has been around since 2017 and it hasn't.

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QGQBGdeZREunxLe 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Why?

A non-hypothetical scenario is that I make a credit card payment via ACH. That money does not leave my account until EOD. Some other transaction causes my balance to fall below the amount required for that transfer. The transfer fails and I am dinged for a missed payment by the CC company (and if the bank sucks they charge a fee too).

Now you could argue this is an accounting issue "Why doesn't the bank reserve the funds until the transfer is complete?" Answer, I don't know ask Capital One. But RTP eliminates the question entirely.

This is a thing already in the UK. I can make a credit card payment from my account using the credit card number. It applies to the balance in real time (realistically in minutes). I don't have to worry that the payment could fail at any point.

	▲	sam1714 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		>Now you could argue this is an accounting issue "Why doesn't the bank reserve the funds until the transfer is complete?" Answer, I don't know ask Capital One. Because transaction ordering isn't guaranteed. Say I know that I'm getting paid on the 1st, and I want to spend my paycheck immediately on rent. If the rent transfer gets processed at 11:00 and the payroll provider gets around to doing it at 11:15, I don't want my rent to be rejected. Therefore, the bank allows transactions to happen and only checks at the end of day for overdraft. They then apply a time-independent ordering to transactions they can reject like paper checks. In fact, this same scheme applies to banks, Fed only looks at their accounts at end of day, why you have overnight funding. The major exception to this is debit cards, which Congress made them reject if the money isn't there at time of authorization.

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thisislife2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is this correct - A very important point is that debit cards offer consumer protections (chargebacks for unsatisfactory goods) - I was under the impression that only credit cards offer chargeback protection?

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QGQBGdeZREunxLe 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can chargeback with a debit card

https://www.chargeback.io/blog/debit-card-chargebacks-guide

Liability is covered under the Electronic Fund Transfer Act

> You have zero liability if you report before any unauthorized charges are made. Reporting within two business days caps your liability at $50. However, if you wait over two business days but less than 60 calendar days after your statement is sent, your maximum liability jumps to $500. Beyond 60 days, you could be liable for all unauthorized charges.

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carlosjobim 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is correct. All Visa and Mastercard debit cards offer these protections, and I would suspect that the smaller brands also do.

Worldwide.

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proxyscore 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can chargeback sepa for longer than cards. And easier

	▲	sam1714 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Not in the US. The major card networks give you 120 days versus 56 for SEPA. In fact, that's illegal in the US because Regulation E gives you 60 days after the bank sends the statement.

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cmurf 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Clearing House owns both ACH (automated clearing house)and RTP (real-time payments).

https://www.theclearinghouse.org/payment-systems/rtp

Zelle is pseudo real time. The settlement (mostly/often?) happens by ACH.

https://www.cjsoi.com/articles/fednow-vs-rtp-vs-ach

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carlosjobim 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you argue with fanatics? Even your sensible and informative post gets downvoted.