| ▲ | fraywing 7 hours ago |
| Big red flags that I think point the other way: - anthropic IPO repricing - pareto frontier gap decreasing by the month between open and closed models - SpaceX disappoinment - enterprise buyers as main consumers of closed tokens are being displaced by OS competition for pennies - job loss and entry level hiring collapse - massive discounts of current data center contract debt - consumer open weights model efficiency improving constantly - the Chinese arms race - a possible rapid downward spiral that may force governments to step in and subsidize Am I missing anything? |
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| ▲ | CoolestBeans 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| - revenue growth at Anthropic slowing - margins shrinking at Anthropic - Google getting thwacked by missed earnings - OpenAI missing funding target - price war - Microsoft revising capex projections down - Plateauing of model capability improvement What's weird to me is that you don't see a lot of people making deals that seem way too good to be true but yet the total numbers are absolutely gigantic. Throw on the fact that the stranded assets will have a shelf life, it really seems terrifying. Yet everything is being priced as pretty darn risky. I think maybe there can be a big slowdown without a dramatic pop. A sort of grind down. But there's not a lot of room for error to prevent a pop so I guess it will happen? I don't know its very weird. Also of course this is all predicated on models not making another dramatic leap. The signals out of the cutting edge labs don't really suggest they have a model that would be as dramatic of a leap as Mythos was when it came out in the hopper. Their code quality seems about as mediocre as what the publicly available models can do. The OpenAI math results are very impressive but that's ripe picking for AI. Also they keep talking about a coordinated training slowdown which is textbook antitrust so they seem to want the government to force their hands off the "spend money on R&D" button. So I don't really know. I guess I would say purely on vibes that this doesn't feel like a bubble but the size of the build out is just so massive that there really isn't a big window for a success case. |
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| ▲ | Schlagbohrer an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Even Anthropic is having their most recent debt priced at 10% interest. Wall Street is seeing them as pretty high risk. | |
| ▲ | frogulis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > margins shrinking at Anthropic Why is this? Competing on price, or compute somehow getting more expensive? | | |
| ▲ | mike_hearn 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The first. There have been massive waves of price cuts in Q3. OpenAI and Anthropic keep slashing prices to take market share from each other, it seems. | |
| ▲ | littlecranky67 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Competing with chinese open-weight model which can run openly or on independent providers. Once the temporary hardware shock is over and becomes more easily available, there will be tons of independent inference providers hosting open-weight models. And I suspect we will see dozens of custom, niche distilations from open-weight models being offered by smaller groups. Anthropic has no value proposition - just being 3-6months ahead in frontier models vs. open-weight doesn't justify trilion dollar valuation. |
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| ▲ | gniv 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To me these are arguments _against_ the bubble popping. The market reacted to all these signals. The semis took the brunt of it but even there it wasn't really dramatic. These are signs of a relatively healthy environment. | |
| ▲ | wyager 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Plateauing of model capability improvement On what are you possibly basing this? The fact that there hasn't been a new model release in 6 weeks? | | |
| ▲ | grey-area 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Have the models become significantly more capable in the last 6 months? I'm not convinced we're still seeing massive improvements as we saw at the start. The output certainly isn't getting better, the software these companies produce is actually pretty buggy. | | |
| ▲ | origini 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | For me personally? yes absoluttly. Opus 5 vs. 5.5 is a clear stepup. Problem is, you need to do a diverse set of experiments to recognize it. Blender support got relevant better,t he amount of corrections got less etc. | |
| ▲ | Aeolos an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, without a question. Fable 5 and Opus 5.5 are a step-change above what we had before. On the open-weights side, GLM 5.3, DeepSeek 4.1 v1017, Qwen3.8-Flash-Next are all significantly more capable in basically any task you can give them. You can now have a model work on a task non-stop for a day or more. This was unthinkable 12 months ago, and unstable 6 months ago. If you are searching for evidence of capability, just look at the amount of projects, blog posts and videos on game remixes, hardware reverse engineering, new compilers and runtimes that has started coming out in the last 6 months. Slop? Sure, but this kind of slop didn't exist at this level 6 or 12 months ago. | | |
| ▲ | grey-area an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | And yet we have to contrast that with reports like this of model capability falling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50422069 It's really very hard to pin down progress in this domain, companies are definitely targetting benchmarks. One bit of evidence I would look at is the maths results this last year which have been impressive, that was a huge expensive brute force effort, but it is still good progress. | |
| ▲ | pixelstack 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | i am wondering in what potential world would average user or even business user require for model to work on a task for more than a couple of hours? Is assumption that models on average are used to build nextt SpaceX or something? |
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| ▲ | KaiserPro an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The biggest metric is that anthropic make ~$2 for every $1 of compute. Two things: 1) it requires a massive money pit to make that compute worth anything 2) it requires charging a premium price To compare to two previous bubbles; railways in the UK and USA. running trains was really quite cheap and engines weren't expensive per passenger served. Compared to stage coaches, the number of staff needed was < 50%. the Massive fucking problem was that it needed GDPs worth of money to make the railway in the first place. Moreover as more railways were put in it significantly altered profitably of railways near them. Lines that were there for produce moving suddenly lost profitably because the produce they were moving fell out of fashion |
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| ▲ | pier25 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Big enough companies who could be the best customers can run models on their infra for a fraction of the price. Eg: Revolut. https://dealroom.co/news/169124-revolut-moves-2-000-engineer... |
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| ▲ | fraywing 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, seems like there is a GPU to engineer sweet spot with models like GLM. This could become a more popular pattern for some organizations. Likely also the reason gov. attempts to intervene |
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| ▲ | krupan 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Inflation, house prices, gas prices, interest rates, huge public distrust of government and corporations, votes to restrict data center construction, endless war in Iran, etc. |
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| ▲ | fraywing 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | 100%, great additions. Someone should make a tracker site for this. |
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| ▲ | ygouzerh 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| - job loss and entry level hiring collapse --> I will out that as in the group "Not a bubble" (Not that I am thinking it myself that it's not a bubble). It looks like the end goal of replacing labor by capital is working. |
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| ▲ | simonask 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | With big technological shifts like this, it's important to keep in mind that the ability to do more with less resources can pan out in two different ways: (1) Keep doing what you're already doing, and lay off the people you no longer need, or (2) Do more than you did with the same amount of resources. The answer depends on the company, but I think many companies are still figuring out whether and how they can exercise this new capacity. We don't know where it will land yet at a societal level. It's a parameter shift, and it will take some time. Pray that you live in a place with sensible labor laws and safety nets. | |
| ▲ | mbgerring an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | No. The biggest layoffs are happening at companies that need to free up additional capex for infrastructure buildout, because they're not getting ROI from their existing capex, and they're having trouble finding more money. | | |
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| ▲ | baalimago 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Political resistance against data center build-outs |
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| ▲ | tyre 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I generally agree with you, but have to get this off my chest. > pareto frontier gap decreasing by the month between open and closed models We need a temporary moratorium on the words "pareto frontier". Every new model is the pareto frontier by some combination of metrics. Like "Bayesian Priors", people love saying / tweeting it because it sounds Smart. It's like watching car commercials where every single vehicle has won something from JD Power and Associates. Which, (a), who the hell are they? and (b) you can only pass out so many awards until the gluttony of awards proves the award is worthless. This isn't targeted to you! It's a pet peeve. |
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| ▲ | drpixie 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Also - all the gee-whiz AI companies are headed by people who don't have great business backgrounds, either by people from tech backgrounds (chasing the last of the VC), or by people with the kind of "interesting" background who you wouldn't lend your own money! |
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| ▲ | fraywing 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Agreed. Also the sadder slice is all the X people token maxxing with no hope of distribution. Cool things are cool, but getting buyers is getting harder. |
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| ▲ | ddxv 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe this is what you meant by "Chinese arms race" but there is, though not quickly, a massive wave of increased hardware supply incoming. Again, let me mention this isn't coming soon in terms of the AI bubble conversation. But China is pushing for a home grown EUV and fabs that should start coming online and having an impact in 2030. The reason that is important is it will fuel the competitiveness of on premises and local open weight models. Though maybe it's less useful in the "bubble" conversation since over four more years you could fit in various booms and busts before the supply side significantly starts changing. |
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| ▲ | fraywing 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Still useful. Especially if Chinese GPUs operating on Nvidia software become performant and accessible, thereby undercutting the price gouging that we're seeing with western chips. The big issue will be access (Re: BYD) | | |
| ▲ | r_lee 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | one good thing about it is that GPUs don't have to be near you, so as long as they're able to be deployed somewhere, they'll be accessible | | |
| ▲ | tsimionescu 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Access here means being allowed to participate in the market. BYD doesn't have a problem shipping cars, it has a problem of being allowed to sell them. | | |
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| ▲ | motionlessveloc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As the friendly article points out, the "AI is a bubble" hypothesis and "entry level hiring is collapsing because AI is replacing their jobs" hypothesis are not really compatible. As always, reality is likely a muddled mix: there is real utility and there is wasted investment that will never pay itself back. |
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| ▲ | tsimionescu 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They actually are compatible, because the idea of replacing workers with AI in large numbers isn't compatible with the kind of economic growth these valuations are predicated on. We are not living in pre-industrial revolution times, where most people are wasting huge human effort on food growth and physical tasks, having room to move into more white collar jobs. So, if you have massive unemployment because AI really is cheaper than labor, you'll get a massive reduction in revenue for virtually every industry, collapsing all of these valuations. Even for B2B companies, Google isn't going to be making much money selling ads to unemployed people who can't afford to buy anything. | |
| ▲ | jayd16 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They're compatible because they are both driven by hype, not reality. | | |
| ▲ | origini 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | My reality: Before AI Tokens I had to hire someone. External or normal. After AI Tokens: I don't need to hire someone anymore and if, i need to know why. Because if i have an contractor for 1-2 years and explain a lot to them, i can just explain it to AI. Also i prefered before already to not hire someone if i had the feeling they don't have potential, now i have even less incentive to do so. | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | And because of massive overhiring. In that scenario, the sequence of events is: Cheap money (ZIRP), companies hiring developers just to deny them to the competition (there were reports) or for empire building or as a signal to investors (etc), AI and nonzero interest rates come around, need to spend billions on AI with limited money -> lay off overhired developers and say it's because AI replaces them. It's great for companies because it allows to admit no mistake regarding the overhiring and claim to be fully in on the current thing. Simple enough, no? |
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| ▲ | bluerooibos 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Musk's claim of Softbank defaulting on turbine orders for datacentres. |
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| ▲ | thln666 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| unless I am mistaken, you missed that the datacenter infrastructure being a one-time cost. nope. those servers have about a 5 year lifetime and then are likely to be replaced. The buildings aren't the expensive part. The GPUs are. so I think that's one big miss from this blog, or I don't understand datacenters as well as I think I do (which is always a possibility! hopefully someone will inform me if I am wrong) |
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| ▲ | matwood 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > those servers have about a 5 year lifetime and then are likely to be replaced This made sense in the past when they were not prohibitively expensive, but other than them breaking down why replace them on the 5 year schedule now? Yes, the newer stuff is better but the jumps from this point forward seem more incremental than revolutionary hardware wise. And even then, a company can simply swap out racks as parts fail. |
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