| ▲ | PaulRobinson a day ago |
| The very best LLM can answer is the answer you can expect from an online forum like Reddit or a book/paper published more than a year ago. If you know how they work and how they are trained this makes perfect sense. Going out and searching the web gets around model cutoffs, so fixes the latency of knowledge issue a bit, but they’re still finding statistical modes of what they’ve seen before. “Stochastic parrot” is seen as a crude and dismissive jibe at LLMs, but it’s actually a concise observation of the reality. |
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| ▲ | OJFord a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| That's not really true any more, since given tool use and iterative 'chain of thought' reasoning, it's more like an answer refined by conversation with the asker or the second best answerer, from the best answerer, is the best that you can expect. E.g. consider the best answer describes how to achieve something with some CLI, but the CLI's changed and the command is now broken. It can discover that, combine with the 'best answer' about what changed in the CLI, and fix it to work for the original problem even if that's completely novel and there were no extant answers about solving the problem with the new CLI form, or that it had broken that use case. It doesn't change fundamentally how they work of course, but 'thinking', creating that feedback loop, made them significantly more useful IMO. |
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| ▲ | vrighter 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | yeah chain of thought reasoning isnt really a think besides running the model for longer and hide most of the output (but still charging you for it). it literally does not work any differently than "non-reasoning" models (except for marketing) | |
| ▲ | PaulRobinson a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The “conversation” is just one between some redditors or book publishers. It’s going to narrow in on a statistically better answer but it’s not going to create novel insight beyond the arguments made from compressed snapshots of existing knowledge. There is no “thinking”. Just more attention, which is apparently, all you need. | | |
| ▲ | yorwba a day ago | parent | next [-] | | All novel insights expressible as text can be assembled from snippets of existing text. The challenge is "only" that you need to find the right snippets. Hence being a stochastic parrot does not represent an upper bound on capabilities, but a suggestion that if you want your parrot to give you a specific answer, you should arrange for a context where it's statistically likely to be correct. | | |
| ▲ | discreteevent a day ago | parent [-] | | Are you saying that a complex stateful system cannot generate a state that is not already recorded in text somewhere? | | |
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| ▲ | serf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >It’s going to narrow in on a statistically better answer but it’s not going to create novel insight beyond the arguments made from compressed snapshots of existing knowledge. ignoring the fundamentally dishonest representation of LLMs in this subthread.. if humanity was given a tool that could restructure already existing and known knowledge and facts into novel results with a statistically better answer automatically it wouldn't be as a minor a win as you make it sound; it would be tremendous. | |
| ▲ | ogogmad a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's not what "attention" means. > it’s not going to create novel insight beyond the arguments made from compressed snapshots of existing knowledge So all of the maths breakthroughs were not novel? | | |
| ▲ | PaulRobinson a day ago | parent [-] | | Firstly, many of them are still being checked, so hold your horses. What I’ve found LLMs to be OK at when it comes to novel insight is being given a goal to work towards (“prove or disprove this”), with access to a large body of sources and it can then chase down 1000s of options no human would bother with. This is why security and maths proofs seem to be an area where it can accelerate things. However I know from my own work in these areas it can still hallucinate and so the output needs careful checking. Is that novel ideation? Or is it self-organising grid search? It’s more efficient than getting 1000 mathematicians to do the work, but it’s not doing something “new”, it’s building on existing work. And yes, I know what “attention” means, I was making a pun. And it still stands up: they’re not in some deep thought about this and reflecting on new ideas, they’re just hammering away at everything in the literature. And it still might be bullshit. |
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| ▲ | Nursie a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The very best LLM can answer is the answer you can expect from an online forum like Reddit or a book/paper published more than a year ago. Hard disagree. Claude is able to come up with solutions in very niche areas where there is little discussion on the web, because it takes steps to digest the source of (for instance) frameworks and libraries, and can then use/advise on lots of esoteric options, edge-cases and all sorts of stuff that doesn't get discussed on the open web. |
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| ▲ | PaulRobinson a day ago | parent [-] | | I work in a niche where it is utterly hopeless at this, and everyone in the niche agrees: it produces things that look convincing to non-experts but that is fundamentally derivative dross. It’s great at bread and butter stuff, but not at specialised ideation. If you know differently, please share examples as maybe we can learn something here. | | |
| ▲ | Nursie a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > It’s great at bread and butter stuff, but not at specialised ideation. This is fundamentally different from your earlier, stronger claim that - "The very best LLM can answer is the answer you can expect from an online forum like Reddit or a book/paper published more than a year ago." I use a less popular java framework quite a lot, Micronaut (I want to move away from it, but that's a different discussion). When trying to solve problems with its behaviour, I can watch as Claude digests the framework source to come up with suggestions, identify bugs that are causing behaviour regressions, and generally unlock stuff that I've previously found very frustrating. Frustrating because the documentation covers a tiny amount of what's in there, and frustrating because there's little online discourse about any of it to refer to. Is this earth shattering in itself? Probably not. But it's certainly better than you can find from "an online forum like Reddit or a book/paper published more than a year ago". It's also far easier to find information through LLMs for another niche I play in, certificate authorities, than it is on the open web. Try to look up anything to do with certificates and you'll just get guided to endless "Why my certificate not work? Browser says no?" discussions, because actually creating certificate authorites is again very niche , not widely discussed and a lot of what you need to leverage in any given language isn't well documented because "you'll never need to do this". Well actually... | |
| ▲ | senordevnyc a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're the one making the claim, and also claiming that you have specific examples to back up your point. So maybe you should share them, and we can see if your assertions hold up. |
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| ▲ | wiseowise a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You’re wrong on literally every point. |
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| ▲ | QuesnayJr a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nobody solves the Quasi-Riemann Hypothesis by looking up online forums. |
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| ▲ | program_whiz a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The discussion here is talking about helping individual research with proposals a human will read. That is different from spending 10s of millions to do a brute-force search of lots of different proofs which can be verified by LEAN automatically. There is no "automatic verification" of a system design proposal, and no way to figure out from 10s of millions of proposals which is best automatically, and also assuming people in this discussion don't have 10s of millions of dollars to throw at every design problem. | | |
| ▲ | scarmig 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I guarantee that you could not find a proof using brute force, even with literally trillions of dollars of compute. You're betraying a lack of understanding of the complexities involved, unless you're using a definition of "brute force" which is essentially equivalent to "intelligent search." | | |
| ▲ | jasomill 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Brute force is certainly the wrong way to put it, but that doesn't mean it's easy to distinguish superhuman effort from superhuman intelligence, or, in the words of Thomas Edison, perspiration from inspiration. Especially as the pure gruntwork involved in acquiring the knowledge required to merely understand the details of the mathematics involved represent at least a significant fraction of a human lifetime. And unless this human process of knowledge acquisition continues, eventually no one will be left to understand and attach any significance to the results machines produce. |
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| ▲ | skydhash a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > That is different from spending 10s of millions to do a brute-force search of lots of different proofs which can be verified by LEAN automatically It’s kinda like the project where someone generated a lot of midi files for all possible pop riffs to copyright them. If you have a start and endpoint, rules for navigation, and unlimited computes, you can brute force anything. The nice stuff is when you made exploration efficient. | | |
| ▲ | QuesnayJr a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Other than for maybe Navier-Stokes, they just didn't brute force it in the way you guys are thinking. Most unsolved math problems are not susceptible to brute force, which is why the problems remained unsolved. AI is so quick it can of course try more ideas than a person, but each idea is executed at genius IQ level. Even if you knew the broad outlines of the proof of quasi-Riemann, there are probably only 20 people in the world who could have executed it. | |
| ▲ | jasomill 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is trivially true for any theorem with a proof that can be automatically verified in finite time, but does not preclude the universe lacking a suitable combination of monkeys, typewriters, and time to do so. |
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| ▲ | famouswaffles 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >That is different from spending 10s of millions to do a brute-force search of lots of different proofs which can be verified by LEAN automatically. That is not remotely how the vast majority of the proofs have worked. You don't know what you're talking about, but that seems par the course for these discussions. |
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| ▲ | PaulRobinson a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | They do by reading papers and connecting dots. Which is what they claim to have done. |
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| ▲ | cucumber3732842 a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >The very best LLM can answer is the answer you can expect from an online forum like Reddit or a book/paper published more than a year ago. The LLMs are vastly superior for any subject matter with even the slightest hint of danger or otherwise high stakes because while both LLMs and Reddit will whine at you and talk down to you the LLM will actually knock it off when told. Like I'm asking you about sheetmetal thickness vs joist spacing for re-skinning a goddamn carport with roofing steel, read the room, this is not the time to whine about permits and snow loads and whatnot because the project is happening with or without your advice. And it's not just mundane stuff. Some guy who's retrofitting new chinesium controls onto 50yo industrial equipment that had a prior generation of controls cobbled on 20yr ago doesn't need to get talked down at about stainless on stainless corrosion when he's asking a question about a solenoid or something. If the LLM talks down to him he can brush it aside. If he tries that on reddit they'll dig in their heels and fling poo. Cutting out the "negative value" middle man of having to painstakingly make the case about the validity of your big picture goal before getting answers to simple questions is of substantial value. Stuff that people would've painstakingly researched themselves rather than ask Reddit or HN or Stack Overflow because dealing with those people is so onerous they now just punch into their LLM of choice and get the best of both worlds. |