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▲ freediddy 3 hours ago

THIS IS NOT DEBT. With debt you are given money that you can spend, and then you have to pay interest for a while and then return all the money you spent.

These are signed contracts for future spending. However, we don't know what the terms are for those contracts and how easy it is to get out of them. For example, with Anthropic and Google's contracts with xAI's compute, they signed a long term contract, but they can get out of the contract with 3 months notice. That isn't a good indication of future spend. The same goes for all of these $3.2T, so these numbers are sus at best.

▲zmmmmm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That is why it is "hidden".

This is very much like the 2008 disaster. You effectively have debt laundering happening whereby speculative income / debt is manufactured into higher grade than it is by passing through multiple parties / steps / debt-like vehicles that look independent but in fact incorporate cumulative risk built on highly correlated factors. Downstream party D has no visibility that the specific uncertainty emanating from party A upstream is 100% correlated with their own risks, along with parties B and C through which the liability passed on the way to them. What looks like independent risks are actually all the same risk and completely fragile to a single event that has quite a high probability of occurring.

▲credit_guy an hour ago | parent [-]

I think you are describing quite accurately what happened in 2008, but I don't think the parallel is as strong as you claim it is.

  > Downstream party D has no visibility that the specific uncertainty emanating from party A upstream is 100% correlated with their own risks
I'm not aware of anything like that happening right now. Do you have any examples?
▲mannanj 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I have an example. Greater than 90% of knowledge workers in tech now are required and expected to use AI. If they aren't, their job prospects are at high risk.

That's an exposure in the Party A-Party D frame is it not?

▲Dylan16807 a minute ago | parent [-]

I don't think so. If AI gets really expensive and/or proves to be useless, those requirements will go away. And it's not the knowledge workers paying for those tokens either.

▲bagacrap 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

yeah it's approaching the point where all risk is that AI is a bubble, and everyone is exposed to it. It's not exactly hidden, and it's not easy to escape either.

▲franktankbank an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

"Hidden"

▲WheatMillington 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This very much is debt. Is it your contention that debt can ONLY arise with an exchange of cash? Because as an accountant I find this preposterous. Under IFRS 16 we recognise, for example, long-term leases as debt, because they are obligations to the business. An obligation to pay in the future is almost the definition of debt. An interest rate is not part of that definition, necessarily.

▲mediaman 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is inaccurate. A conditional commitment to spend is not necessarily debt.

The difference is whether it is an executory contract.

If I sign a contract committing me to spend $10m in the future, but the other party is obligated to deliver that $10m of services, that is an executory contract and it is not considered a liability under IFRS because the commitment is contingent on the other party performing.

You're mixing this up with property leases, which create a debt because the tenant has obtained a Right of Use (ROU) asset, which is offset by the debt (lease payments). Leasing a property for ten years gives you both an asset and an offset liability, but only once the lease has commenced.

An obligation to pay that is contingent on the other party's performance of a contract is absolutely not a "debt".

Now, once that data center is built and turned over to the client, that may create an ROU that would generate both an asset (the ROU) and the offsetting liability. But if it's some future data center that will be built, it does not.

Even then, once the data center is built, an ROU may not be created: if the commitment is for a million GPU hours, with the seller having some freedom on how to deliver those GPU hours, that does not create an ROU. If it's for 100 specific GPUs for 10,000 hours each, it does, because it's about the right of use for those specific pieces of property.

For lease accounting, the asset and debt are only created at the point the lease begins, not the signing of the contract, so your reference to IFRS isn't relevant here.

▲kshri24 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is not the same thing. In long-term lease you get immediate control of the asset you are leasing and hence the lease becomes a liability in the books of accounts (you record both the asset acquired and lease liability in the books and it balances). A contract cannot be recorded in your books as a liability as neither work is performed yet nor any cash transaction has taken place. It is just a commitment. Once the contract starts being executed, only then can you record in the books.

▲freediddy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are an extremely bad accountant if you classify obligations as debt.

▲koolba 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A liability is not necessarily debt. You can have liabilities on your balance sheet for future obligations base on current circumstance. But the terms of those liabilities might allow exiting without fully realizing them.

▲seizethecheese 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Naive question: are you conflating debt with liabilities? Are these two separate technical terms or are they the same?

To my lay understanding, debt means a loan you have to pay back, whereas liabilities are everything you're on the hook for.

▲kshri24 3 hours ago | parent [-]

A debt is a liability. But not all liabilities are debts.

▲AndrewKemendo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> long-term leases as debt, because they are obligations to the business

I don’t think this is how your average reader of this would interpret debt.

When I and most people think of debt they think a negative equity account balance that you pay off to a bank or lender like a mortgage or credit card. Not a 24 month apt lease because no equity is being exchanged.

In part because of the reason OP said which was severability which isn’t something you can do with owed debt.

Graebers debt demonstrates that this is the most common way to think about it.

▲ 3 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
▲eaglelamp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Call it what you want, but if the companies who received the orders are able to treat them as assets/income then the overall macro effect will be the same as with debt: leverage. If funding begins to dry up it may not be Anthropic or Google facing a liquidity crunch, but someone will be.

▲sega_sai 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Part of the problem if I understand correctly is that many of these commitments are now used to value related companies. I.e. if the some of the contracts are cancelled, many companies will drastically have reframe their profits/stock prices etc.

▲louiereederson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly. This is like calling an order debt. Orders can be canceled, and market is clearly starting to price that in based on significant derating in semis over the past few months.

If OpenAI does not buy compute from Azure will they go bankrupt? Probably not - and that should be a . There is very likely a lot more discretion in these agreements than this article implies.

This sort of reporting is a clear indication of where sentiment is.

▲Detrytus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, it can trigger the next financial crisis either way. Because now that spending is on the books of two companies: xAI, as a projected income, and Anthropic, as an external investment[1] that justifies their overblown valuation. Now, if Anthropic decides to get out of that deal, then the stocks of both Anthropic and xAI will crash, possibly triggering a wider market crash.

[1] it is an investment because I think xAI agreed to sell their compute infrastructure well below market price.

▲refurb 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yup. This is terrible financial reporting.

One thing the tech giants are worried about are being left behind on expanding their compute. So what do they do? Sign a contract to agree to purchase $XT in compute over the next X years. It’s like buying an option - it’s a right, not an obligation to purchase.

If I were an investor and spent $10,000 to buy options to purchase $1,000,000 in Google stock, it’s not “$1,000,000 in hidden debt”