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▲ pumba_noob 8 hours ago

Why do supermarket freezers need to be on the internet in the first place? A freezer has one job right.. keep things cold :/

▲dhx 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Completely speculating as I don't know the situation in Europe, but some possible reasons are:

- Remote alerting for the store manager/head office to quickly respond to a refrigerator failure after hours, providing options for saving valuable stock (e.g. move stock to another refrigerator).

- Maintaining an audit trail for cold chain management (e.g. regulator says you must keep an audit trail proving that a frozen fish has been kept below -30oC since it was processed on a ship all the way up to point of sale in a supermarket).

- Refrigerator manufacturer says a condition of warranty is that the refrigerator must provide remote telemetry proving some warranty condition has been met (e.g. regular cleaning cycle operated).

Note: all these speculated reasons are unidirectional data flows. So even if a valid reason exists for Internet connectivity, why can't it be limited to unidirectional data flows?

▲Symbiote 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Also so the temperature can be controlled to make use of cheaper electricity — if you know it's going to be windy from 02:00 to 04:00, then still until 06:00, you can run the freezers a bit extra while the electricity is super cheap.

▲ 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]
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▲mistrial9 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

.. while they leave lighting on around the building and outside for 24 hours a day; they pay for ads who-knows-where.. The efficiency call is galling to me because we have had thirty years to increase efficiency with miracle tech like LED lighting, and yet little has been done.

▲MRtecno98 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Fridges and hvac consumes an order of magnitude more energy than lighting

▲eszed 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Maintaining an audit trail for cold chain management

It's this, primarily, or most importantly.

I work in the restaurant industry. Health departments require you to assure them that your hot things are kept hot and your cold things are kept cold. The old way was staff walking around the store reading thermometers and writing temperatures down on paper; the newer way was your staff walking around the store inputting temperatures on an iPad connected to your business-management software. The trouble with that is that staff forget to do it (despite threats of discipline, and push notifications to their phones), or even blatantly fake it.

Failing to keep an accurate temperature log means fines, and other consequences, up to and including loss of your health license. I am 100% in favor of this legislation, and solid enforcement of it. The main improvement I would make is to harmonize codes and enforcement across municipalities. I'm in the USA, every county has their own requirements - and their own "portal" for submitting documentation. It's a massive pain in the ass to write Standard Operating Procedures for staff across multiple stores in multiple enforcement districts when there simply aren't any SOPs.

The majority of the fines our (responsible, and genuinely trying-to-do-it-right) company received were things like a staff member moving from a store in County A to a store in County B - just for a few days, to cover someone's PTO, or something - and inadvertently followed County A's logging requirements rather than County B's. Two genuine cases: logging every two hours, instead of every ninety minutes; using whole degrees, instead of tenths. We could appeal, but that takes a lawyer's time, so even if successful it wasn't always worth it.

Real-time data, from connected sensors, is unambiguously better. Staff get loads of time back, to make food, or help guests; all the logging gets done "right", for whatever jurisdiction; data's held by a third-party, so nothing can be faked.

That said, we're not connecting our infrastructure to the internet! We have a separate IoT sensor service that tracks the temps for us. I'm sure their security is also terrible, but that doesn't matter nearly as much. A year of their service is ~80% of the "routine", and totally innocent, fines and other costs that we were previously paying. That's the way all of these stores should go, in my opinion.

▲antisol 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Those might be reasons for them to be connected to a network. They are not reasons to connect them to the internet

▲bunderbunder 6 hours ago | parent [-]

If you want to be able to do that monitoring from a central location then at some point you will need some form of internetwork to support transferring data between local networks. And nowadays there is really only the one obvious choice of internetwork.

▲beejiu 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some large supermarkets (in the UK at least) sell their capacity to the National Grid so it can be balanced in times of demand. They agree to turn off their freezers for a set amount of time to create a "virtual battery".

▲elric 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not just that. But why the fuck is the control software so weak? Why does it allow remotely bumping temperatures to near boiling without any checks? Which idiot designed this system? Why aren't they out of business? Same with the people who installed these systems. Why on earth didn't they think to secure it?

▲Arodex 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Go offer your services to these companies and see their answer.

The big IT firms syphon off all the talent with compensation these fridge and supermarket companies can't match. You won't find much talent there. Who is brilliant with computers and would want to work there?

But look also at how underfunded the basic blocks of IT are, how open-source is left to fend for itself. It is the whole culture of modern IT to hack things together and not make them well-defined and reliable.

▲dreamcompiler 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Very likely they shipped with an ADMIN/ADMIN username/password and nobody changed it. Because who would want to break in to a freezer, right? It's not like there's bitcoin in there.

We've been telling people for years that naive threat modeling was going to bite everybody one day. And finally, here we are.

▲plorg 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Approximately. These models had been deprecated by 5 or 10 years, and a successor model last year had a software update issued because they had a secret "password of the day" that allowed you to use the date as the admin password.

▲Delphiza 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Supermarket freezers are a bit more complicated than that. They can run at different temperatures and can consume a lot of power, so are part of a bigger store HVAC and electrical system as they may load-balance. Stores do not have qualified engineers on site to do anything with refrigeration equipment and it is better to have minimum wage offsite monitoring than expect a minimum wage shelf packer who only gets one toilet break a day to care about the fridges.

▲prepend 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t know about supermarkets but for medical freezers it’s useful to be online for monitoring and calibration.

My org has lots of freezers that need to be at precise temperatures. Sometimes they drift so you have to check them a few times per day, log the check, and adjust as necessary. Doing this for a thousand freezers is tedious and error prone. Networking helps. “Cloud” lets it all be done remotely without getting IT very involved for vpns to be set up with specific vendors. It also helps with patching and auditing security so seems odd that these supermarket ones were out of date.

▲fifilura 7 hours ago | parent [-]

It seems like monitoring did not work out so great for them this time :)

(Assuming they didn't also patch the telemetry software, but that is a much harder attack than just raising the temperature).

▲rocqua 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On top of the monitoring mentioned by others, it's also to create a centralized log of actual temperatures. This then lets you show inspectors that you are keeping up with refrigeration requirements.

▲mrob 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Creating a centralized log is monitoring. It doesn't need write access to the defrost setting.

▲rocqua 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep, but once you have internet connectivity, things escalate and people say "wouldn't it be convenient if we can also...."

▲DougN7 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You have to wonder about the monitoring - it apparently wasn’t alerting for someone to do something about it in time. What was the point of the monitoring in that case??

▲rocqua 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It might have dutifully logged that the temperature setting was changed, which will allow regulators to conclude that the safety of the food stored in these refrigerators can no longer be assured.

Compliance tends to warp the underlying goal quite a bit.

▲ 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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▲belorn 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What I read from the last wave is that supermarket changes how cold freezers will run depending on how much customers they expect that will open and close the doors. Just having the freezers adapt based on the temperature of every single moment cost too much electricity or can result in unsafe temperatures.

▲oblio 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For commercial uses some kind of global monitoring is not super crazy. Regular retail freezers being on the internet, that's the crazy talk.

▲mrob 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Monitoring doesn't need write access. RS-422 is simple and reliable. It uses separate receive and transmit pairs and you don't need to connect both. The freezer can continually transmit its telemetry over unidirectional RS-422 and a separate system can forward it over the Internet.

Hackers can still tamper with the telemetry and create false reports of problems, but actually changing the thermostat settings would require local access, so there's opportunity for somebody to verify the problem really exists.

▲ 7 hours ago | parent [-]
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▲fifilura 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But why can they control the temperature then?

If I put a Zigbee thermometer in the freezer they can hack it all they want, but I am pretty sure they will not be able to set the temperature to 50C.

▲xattt 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they want to get their pubic-facing remote monitoring jollies, why not implement ro access?

▲oblio 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> pubic-facing remote monitoring jollies

Those freezers seem to be having lots of fun :-)

▲hahn-kev 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Read access, sure. But being able to turn them off?

▲sevenzero 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Likely so that stores can be monitored remotely. A lot of supermarkets have a centralized orchestration somewhere, especially big chains.

▲ 8 hours ago | parent [-]
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