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▲ calf a day ago

It's inaccurate because nothing about math or CS is "existentially" toxic. Or "distinctly" as the other commenter.

If you accept that as a premise then obviously you agree with their truth.

If you don't accept toxicity as somehow intrinsic to the subject but rather the structural conditions, say, of post-neoliberalized academia at large, and certain faculties being only a bit more susceptible (if even, or just different, say compare humanities vs STEM reactions in the future), then the whole comment reads as a conflation.

Instead the simpler answer is that academia at large values freedom of inquiry and other Enlightenment notions which are privileged compared to outside of academia. But that is not toxicity, it's just intellectual integrity and the academic autonomy in pursuit of one's interests avocationally. The toxicity comes from the intellectual profession having to function as a modern clerisy for socioeconomic reasons under post-neoliberal capitalism.

People may conflate the two attributions and that is a deep mistake, in my opinion. In fact the conflation due to internalized oppression easily creates and explains this kind of resentful, dismissive tone response that is a distortion of the true situation.

▲Paracompact 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I only lay claim to criticize the mathematical culture I have myself experienced, Western and post-neoliberalized as it may be. I'm not sure it's even possible to discuss culture "intrinsic" to math, or any other subject for that matter.

> The toxicity comes from the intellectual profession having to function as a modern clerisy for socioeconomic reasons under post-neoliberal capitalism.

Sure. And I think (Western, post-neoliberalized) math has resisted that corruption possibly better than any of its sibling cultures. But what makes the toxicity "distinct" is the emphasis on enlightenment, as if being a top-class mathematician brings you closer to the Godhead than does, say, being a top-class chess player, or a top-class defense attorney. Mathematical theories are treated less like robust human creations percolating over decades and more like divine revelation channeled through chosen disciples in fits of inspiration (c.f. Cantor, Galois, Godel, Grothendieck). A lot of this is projected from the outside the culture into it, but it is not outright rejected by the culture. Instead we still openly endorse what amounts to Great Man theories of mathematical history, attributing to almost every noteworthy mathematician a moniker of "genius" and praising them as paragons of thought, not as the unhealthy subjects of cults of personality.

▲calf 16 hours ago | parent [-]

And the material conditions for this "great man" narrative is again the particular form of intellectual clerisy.

In other words, the move to experience and cultural relativist statements about "math culture" is exactly the cynical ideological move that an academic cleric does. It deflects from examination of where these narratives come from and attribute it to e.g. "math history" or "math culture" or just "something specific to math itself" etc, etc.

Neoliberal intellectuals love to attribute toxicity to the Enlightenment. They can't help it.

▲oliculipolicula a day ago | parent | prev [-]

>simpler answer

Simpler conflation: need and ability

Eg

1. "from each according to his ability (the tyranny of academy)" with "from each according to his need (the freedom afforded to clerisy)"

2. "to each according to his ability to get rich" (meritocracy) with "to each according to his need to get rich" (post-liberal capitalism)