| ▲ | bsaul a day ago |
| Isn't it the passage of mathematics from the age of craftsmanship to the age of industrial making ? My recent take on AI is that people haven't adapted to the new huge potential of the tool, and don't dream big enough (yet). It's like seeing a car engine for the first time, lamenting about the future of horses, and not realizing it'll also help us fly. |
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| ▲ | mrheosuper a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| >and don't dream big enough People have been dreaming running PS5 games on PC for a long time. Just when AI starting to become capable of doing that, Anthropic shut it down. Yeah you can dream, but only what we allow. |
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| ▲ | no-name-here 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 1. That’s a legal grey area that could result in significant legal exposure for Anthropic. 2. Even if someone wants to do something that’s in a legal grey area, or more (hacking others, another item limited by Anthropic), is the idea that such people won’t have the ability to use AI to do those things? I don’t understand the criticism that just because one company might institute some guard rails that those who want to conduct legally grey or black activities will be unable to use other AIs to do so? | |
| ▲ | aurareturn 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah you can dream, but only what we allow.
This was true before Claude by the way. |
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| ▲ | ethanlipson a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To a first approximation I agree that it’s similar to industrialization. However there’s a key factor which distinguishes this case, and which makes the analogy less than perfect: there isn’t a profit motive in mathematics, so there was no push for this development from inside the field. Instead, the industrialization was entirely exogenous, from companies which do in fact have that profit motive and view math as a means to achieve it. There might be a “proof motive” in math which one could argue will drive the full automation of theorem proving. But we must recognize that profit is more universally valuable (i.e. it has value outside the industry in which it was created), whereas proofs are only valuable inside the math community (at least the pure math proofs the labs have been publishing thus far). |
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| ▲ | doctorpangloss a day ago | parent [-] | | It's more like opera. Math has always been opera. Do rich people like opera? Yes. Is that a profit motive? No... but it's a shibboleth for wanting to be rich. Do you get it? It's ridiculous to say, no profit motive in mathematics. It's like saying, no profit motive in LISP. But cmon, you think the Collison brother who took Math 55 and liked LISP: I know that in a pedantic sense what you mean. But in terms of academic departments where people say they are no interested in money and it turns out they want to become billionaires... Math Department ranks pretty highly. Always has. | | |
| ▲ | ethanlipson 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | I agree that being technically gifted has been a great way to make boatloads of cash in the past few decades, and that this correlates with being good at math. But I don’t see why this implies that enjoying math means someone is more money-minded than others. If anything, the students in pure math departments are intentionally forgoing the potential cash conferred by their technical abilities in favor of the academic pursuit. In anticipation of a reply observing that math PhDs regularly go into quant, I counter that quant programs reach out to interview students in many other fields, and more to the point, spending half a decade studying algebraic number theory is surely not even close to an efficient way to build wealth.
In response to your second point: even if mathematicians desired wealth more than other professionals, how does this demonstrate the existence of some kind of profit motive in math? | | |
| ▲ | doctorpangloss 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think it's more that the quirky neurodivergence makes it much easier to look the other way for the skeezy, and sometimes criminal, ways that banks make money. |
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| ▲ | hmokiguess a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is really well put, I totally agree with you. There’s an immediate resistance towards change rather than embracing it and finding opportunities to improve and work with it. |
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| ▲ | creata a day ago | parent [-] | | How do you expect mathematicians to "embrace" OpenAI having unreleased models that are much better at solving big-ticket problems than they are? Maybe some math departments could pay OpenAI for access to their models, but I doubt OpenAI would want to deal with most of them. | | |
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| ▲ | arnaudsm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That is a great example, car engines (and derivatives) did create tremendous economical value but are in the process of making our planet unhabitable. Maybe we should listen to people that care about negative externalities more often, and actually mitigate them. |
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| ▲ | aorloff a day ago | parent [-] | | Unfortunately, I cannot think of a single politician right now who is a thought leader on regulating technology, which is exactly the kind of person we should be looking for. People who understand that we don't need every website to give us an annoying popup saying that they are using tracking cookies but we do need the option to opt out of AI features for basic services. | | |
| ▲ | customguy a day ago | parent [-] | | > every website? What? Only websites that want to track you before opting in have cookie banners. HN doesn't have a cookie banner, in case you haven't noticed. I'd say your issue isn't with consumer protection, but with pushy marketing people (or worse). But they're good at marketing, hence the cookie banner nonsense complaints, which redirect the anger towards laws requiring that creeps announce their presence, rather than the creeps themselves. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | Trusteando a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Two possible walls for advancing math with AI: first, it could be that the kind of problems that AI solves are the ones that don't open new avenues to concepts and ideas, and second, problems complexity is usually not linear, and the new and interesting problems to solve could be at a level of complexity beyond what AI can currently solve. Perhaps mathematicians could work to find ways to help AI cope with those walls. |
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| ▲ | ManuelS 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It's like seeing a car engine for the first time, lamenting about the future of horses, and not realizing it'll also help us fly. Only this time we are the horses and argue about the car engine not having the intuition on where to put the hooves. |
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| ▲ | robotpepi 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > My recent take on AI is that people haven't adapted to the new huge potential of the tool, and don't dream big enough (yet). I guess you can dream big enough only if you have access to the really interesting models. The 20$ subscription won't get you there, and the 100$ one is already out of reach for so many people. |
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| ▲ | bcvvvy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How you get somewhere is important and tools change how you get there. You can drive 1000 miles and arrive at the destination on the highway quickly. Or you can take the slow road and walk. You discover unrelated things, make new relationships, see the scenery, listen and smell what is around you and have time to contemplate things which may or not be related. This particular tool economy robs us of all these things in the rush to the destination. I'd sacrifice "progress" a little for some of the better bits of humanity. |
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| ▲ | jason_oster a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Do you feel robbed of your scenic expeditions because vehicles and highways exist? | | |
| ▲ | catlifeonmars 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not OP, but actually I do because I have been forced to live in places where it’s dangerous to walk and where all the scenic landscape has been replaced with asphalt. I get your point in general, but I think vehicles are a poor analogy because in many ways they have changed the places we live for the worse (and yes I’ll concede occasionally for the better). It turns out we need places to park all of these vehicles and they compete for space with humans. | |
| ▲ | bcvvvy a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not really. I feel sad for the people who miss them. | | |
| ▲ | signatoremo a day ago | parent [-] | | That’s very narrow-minded. I love hiking and biking and exploring new places, meeting new people. I also appreciate that I can use the highway to get to the destination conveniently. Often so that I can enjoy the very experience I’d miss according to you. |
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| ▲ | scotty79 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The thing is that if you don't learn to drive some destinations are unachievable. And destination is more important than the journey unless you travel for pleasure or personal development. | | |
| ▲ | bcvvvy a day ago | parent [-] | | There are many more places you can't drive. I've walked to quite a few of them. That analogy holds too. | | |
| ▲ | paulddraper a day ago | parent [-] | | To keep with the analogy, there are far more places you can feasibly drive to than walk to. (And even more if you can combine them.) | | |
| ▲ | wwweston 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Your best argument is the 2nd sentence. The first sentence is actually a much better jumping off point for the other side of the argument than yours, because the mistakes involved in the statement should set off alarm bells for people who've walked with mathematics. What do you mean by "place"? What do you mean by "more"? Are there more places as marked by real numbers between 0 and 1, or places as marked by integers? Could a machine that can count integers 1000000 times faster than people "visit" all those real places between 0 and 1? What would it mean to visit all the places between 0 and 1? Once the machine visited all of them how would it help people explore that territory? What do the general ratios and rules between paths and areas mean about how much path it takes to cover an area? The real world is quantized in way that math isn't, of course, but that's one way the analogy can lead you astray. And even just keeping to the real world rather than math, it's not all about the sheer velocity with which you can cover an arbitrary distance metric. The primary bottleneck is less that velocity than the amount of time you have to direct to place scaled to your capacities. The car's velocity can let you trade some of that time for fast travel between farther places, and with a road network can arguably even increase a certain variety of places, but that's a very different statement than more places. And it's also a wall against attention to everything in between. | | |
| ▲ | paulddraper 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Bro it’s not so complicated. I can get to more places in my car (or someone else’s). |
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| ▲ | bcvvvy a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | XTXinverseXTY a day ago | parent [-] | | It's a pretty straightforward geometric argument, from your own analogy I'm sure there's a coherent rebuttal but "That is plainly rubbish" isn't the reply I'd expect in good-faith discussion | | |
| ▲ | bcvvvy a day ago | parent [-] | | It's well in the realm of obvious, but possibly outside the realm of personal experience on your part. I think pointing at Greenland for a start and asking you to think about the problem for a bit will lead to the same coherent view on the matter. | | |
| ▲ | cwillu 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And how will you be getting to the island? | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is this about driving to an island? If you need a plane or boat to the island and still call that trip "walking", then someone can take a plane or boat to the island and rent a car and call it "driving" or "driving plus walking". Or if you're just saying that a very good backpacker that happens to be in greenland can get more places by walking because of a lack of roads, that might be true. But for a normal person in a typical household, their walking range is not that big. If you're in the US or Europe the roads reach almost everywhere. | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | stevenhuang a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | No one forces you to drive. You can still walk. | | |
| ▲ | runarberg a day ago | parent | next [-] | | They build cities around the car, they defund public transit, they close down rail lines, they build new housing a 5 km away from your closest grocery store, and 20 km away from any cafés and other cultural venues. Your job is located 50 km north of where you live, your partner’s job is 60 km in the other direction, and your child’s school is 10 km in the third direction. They neglect to build sidewalks, and force you to walk 1-2 meters from cars racing at 70 km/h. With all the noise and high risk stressing you up to the level you just wanna scream. stevenhuang: No one forces you to drive. You can still walk. | | |
| ▲ | AmigoCharlie 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Don't tell me you dream of a maoist city where only bike is allowed and "car-brains" (as anti-automobile fanatics call us) are considered "enemies of the people" right? | | |
| ▲ | RugnirViking 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | do you think, perhaps, that it might be possible to cool the discussion? that there might be some meaning located between the picture painted by the person you're replying to and your own? or do you sincerely think that the only options available to us are "all cars banned" or the alternative posted by the person above? | |
| ▲ | simgt 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | TIL amsterdam, tokyo and barcelona are maoist cities |
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| ▲ | stevenhuang a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | So drive then. You can also move. The point is there are options. Many cities have strong infrastructure and have embraced walk ability. If not driving is such a big deal to you, why not do something about it? | | |
| ▲ | sassbadger 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're arguing like an edge lord here. What he is saying is that you're effectively forced to drive. Not so difficult to understand. There are plenty of people fighting for change but because our political and economic landscape is captured by big business, it's not so easy. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is extremely location dependant. Not everybody in the world is effectively forced to drive. Sure, maybe if someone has the misfortune to be an US city they have no other option but there are other places that are not like that and cities with good public transport and relatively low car usage. | | |
| ▲ | sassbadger 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes but GP is describing basically the norm, while I'd argue the minority here lives in a public transport utopia like the Netherlands or Denmark. People generally have very few options outside car ownership, even in cities. |
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| ▲ | xigoi 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But it now takes 3 times as long because you constantly have to cross roads. | |
| ▲ | Vaushite a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's pretty well documented they deliberately made things impractically large distances apart and scrapped the idea of footpaths, to encourage car sales, paid for by car companies to your local city government several decades ago. | |
| ▲ | bcvvvy a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | But Terry T said I have to drive or die. Or has he changed his mind again. | | |
| ▲ | dang a day ago | parent [-] | | Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful. |
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| ▲ | kaffekaka a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yes, this. Unless there is a true singularity where no more questions are ever asked, there will be definition be infinitely many problems to solve, and most of them we have not even glimpsed yet. Singularity? Probably not. Tech bro dictatorship? Unfortunately a bit more likely. None of the above? Then we have a small shot at a great future. Having a machine that solves hard problems must be a good thing. |
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| ▲ | disfictional a day ago | parent [-] | | Solving the hardest problems doesn't always result in the best outcomes unless the answers are shared equitably and implemented compassionately. | | |
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