| ▲ | fedpost 4 hours ago |
| We desperately need to keep local models competitive with the hyper scalers. I won't want to be beholden to them and their whims forever. With anthropic now restricting game reverse engineering I think we're about to cross a Rubicon of censorship. |
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| ▲ | canpan 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The nice thing is that current local modes don't go away. The weights are out. Qwen 27b and deepseek are already very useful. Hardware will keep getting stronger so after the current memory crisis you can run them more cheaply. Of course the proprietary models will continue to improve and we have no guarantee that there will be new open models. But for coding, the local models are already good enough for a vast amount of use cases, if you are an experienced developer yourself and can guide it. |
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| ▲ | pinyen_cheng 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the future should be efficient quantization which can make model with the same level as Qwen 3.8 27b now accessible from our laptop. | | |
| ▲ | Moto7451 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is mostly a memory bandwidth issue. Qwen 3.8 27b and the related Bonsai 2 27B run on my M5 Max laptop with 36GB of ram. It’s a little slow due to my specific model having lower memory bandwidth than higher end models with more ram and cores. MoE models perform better here and expert streaming engines can allow larger than memory models to run. | | |
| ▲ | nout 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Multiple teams and efforts are now making Qwen 3.8 27b work much faster on Mac and CUDA and the inference speed is doubling almost every week.
There's now ongoing competition about who will make it work faster with exactly the same byte output at https://mlx.fast . TensorFold is the project to follow. |
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| ▲ | girvo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Its possible (though very hard to do well, and needs a fair bit of compute) to improve the local models we have, too. Continued training is possible as time goes on. | |
| ▲ | Havoc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The nice thing is that current local modes don't go away. Given pace of advance I'm not convinced this is a winning strategy. The models of today (open or not) are way smarter than those of a year ago. ...so we really do need open models to keep pace, not just be statically competitive at a given point in time | | |
| ▲ | ashkankiani 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Even if Deepseek v4.1 is the last open source LLM I have access to, I would be perfectly fine with that. My secret is that I have this relatively unknown technique for solving problems where I use this quantum engine that developed from just atoms over 4.54 billion years into the most sophisticated machine in the known universe. It's a frontier model that every human has access too, actually. So when I really want to solve a problem, I just think on it. And when I need something to iterate through the things I thought of quickly, I use deepseek. | | |
| ▲ | cortesoft 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You say that now, but you don't know what the future models will be capable of. If models get ridiculously good, you might not be perfectly fine with that. | | | |
| ▲ | edot 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep, fully satisfied with DS 4.1 Flash or GLM 5.3 Flash. I prefer using one chat at a time, actually thinking through things with it, as opposed to the YOLO run all night multi-agent thing. I mean I’m still okay with subagents if my main thread needs to explore a few options and then report back, but all on the same idea. | |
| ▲ | SequoiaHope 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The thing here for me is not that I’m unable to solve problems with my brain, it’s that I value the automation in labor provided by coding agents. I do not want future advancements to be locked behind proprietary doors. | | |
| ▲ | ashkankiani an hour ago | parent [-] | | I agree with that but the cat is out of the bag now. Unless you believe in exponential improvement (which I don’t), the open models might be at a resource disadvantage, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t catch up or surpass the closed ones. Throwing money at a problem doesn’t guarantee success. I mainly just want to point out the value of human ingenuity coupled with a model like DS4.1 is technically enough to get most people to where they want to go, and that includes smarter open models. |
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| ▲ | Obscurity4340 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How do you run DS 4.1 Flash if your computer isnt powerful and everything? | | |
| ▲ | ashkankiani 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It can run on one strix halo machine, which is what I have. For everything else, there’s a vibrant community brute forcing more efficient engines and quantizations. There’s a minimum bar right now, so it depends on your hardware. | | |
| ▲ | fooblaster 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | you have 5k$ of ram in a strix halo? | | |
| ▲ | ashkankiani 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I bought my box for $3k last year because I hadn't updated my PC since the first threadripper 1950x, and the Strix Halo is the only x86 with unified memory that's optimized for the kind of CPU intensive stuff I do, and they finally have proper AVX512 too. It was the perfect upgrade for me (except for lack of PCIe 5 & ECC), which coincidentally happened to be perfectly positioned for local inferrence. and I liked it so much (and saw that the RAM drought was going to last for at least a few years) so I bought a second one to use as a general server for myself and my family. |
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| ▲ | Havoc 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The fact that you point to the latest model as „I’d be fine with that“ proves my point. If expectations were static you’d be fine with qwen 2.5…but nobody sane says that today. It’s a moving target thus we need open weights to move | | |
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| ▲ | avazhi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m all for local models and getting away from Anthropic/OAI but Qwen 27B might as well be a horse drawn carriage compared to a 2026 Porsche. Like, I guess it’s useful if you had nothing better but acting like it’s comparable to anything the frontier models have is just disingenuous. | | |
| ▲ | jeffyaw 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | disagree, it’s absolutely comparable. but an m5 max is where it shines. and there are 50 flags to finetune with llama server before you get it right. i do prefer llama server over mlx currently on mac as well. | | |
| ▲ | dontlaugh 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It’s so poor for most tasks that you’re faster doing it manually. DeepSeek and GLM are useful, though. Even the flash variants. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm an hour ago | parent [-] | | I have all three and you're not going to convince me of that. Side-by-side Qwen 3.8 27B is ~6x as fast as DS4 and GLM 5.3 and faster than that if you get the speculative engine set up properly. That means you can iterate very rapidly on the same problem and for many problems this is the way to solve them. DS4 and GLM 5.3 shine when Qwen would take too many turns to solve something, they simply have more world knowledge and seem to home in on possible solutions faster in #tg but slower in wall clock time. If a particular problem is within striking range of all three then Qwen will usually be the fastest solver by far. It also depends on how good your prompt is, whether you are setting up points for guidance or whether you expect everything to be solved in a single shot. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But it's all for the good of humanity, so how can you complain? https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/53Gc35vDLK2u5nBxP/... |
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| ▲ | andai an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Anthropic restricting game reverse engineering Which is literally the coolest thing to come out of this... Did they get a letter from Nintendo's legal team or something? |
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| ▲ | walrus01 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Wait and see, I give it fairly high odds everything tagged as 'uncensored' or 'abliterated' will get wiped from huggingface at some point in the future. The main barrier to wider spread adoption of this right now is that very few people have the legit on-prem hardware resources/budget to run something like an abliterated Q8 of deepseek v4.1 flash 1017 or mimo 2.6 or equivalent in size locally. |
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| ▲ | 1broseidon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Doubt it. Even if HF drops them, it will not be hard for someone to move it to something like a decentralized torrent site dedicated to open source models. Banning them would just invite competition which is why I think HF is holding out as long as they legally can. | | | |
| ▲ | Aurornis an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I give it fairly high odds everything tagged as 'uncensored' or 'abliterated' will get wiped from huggingface at some point in the future This is the kind of bet where I would take the opposite position without hesitation. The only thing I could see them removing would be models that are specifically trained to do bad things, like a model trained to produce illicit underage image content. And I would be totally understanding of and encouraging of that, even if it makes the free speech absolutists unhappy. I think the uncensored and abliterated models are more hype than actual threat. The journalists and politicians are too busy going after the AI labs every time someone does something bad and the police can find ChatGPT logs before it. I doubt we’re going to find a situation where someone was running local models and also keeping logs of everything and also commits a crime and also the journalists find it and also they make a story that catches on and so on. It’s such a niche thing it’s just not a priority. There are some open LLM people who are treating it like a crisis before it happens, but come on. It’s the internet. We can download gigabytes of pirated TV shows despite that industry and lawmakers working hard to stop it for decades. If open models got banned somehow, you’d be able to download them the same way. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 32 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I didn't say they won't immediately move somewhere else or still be readily available. Just be taken off HF. It'll be a futile game of whack a mole for anyone trying ot stop it. The new corporate overlords at some point will face pressure. The 72GB 2160p HEVC copy of Apocalypse Now sitting on my home theatre file server which came from a well seeded torrent does indeed say that large file sizes of things that $bigcorp don't like will continue to be easily available. |
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| ▲ | zaphirplane 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hugging Face just hosts the models. Any hypothetical censorship on their end wouldn't stop you from running the original model provided directly by the builder. | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | girvo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Applying Heretic to your model weights is a very straightforward thing, though. | |
| ▲ | sho an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > everything tagged as 'uncensored' or 'abliterated' will get wiped from huggingface ... you do know you can download from huggingface and make your own copy, right? And even if you couldn't, you could run heretic (or whatever approach they used) yourself on the official image. It's all just a well-understood process. A decent abliteration run on DS 4.1 flash will probably cost you about $25k. They're not small but they're hardly out of reach. I have backups on my home NAS. > very few people have the legit on-prem hardware resources/budget to run something like an abliterated Q8 of deepseek v4.1 flash 1017 It's something like $300-400/day for the raw hardware on RunPod, a little more on AWS. Not for home users, sure, but for a business wanting to eg check its security against the best of what attackers might bring, that's nothing. And it will go down. | |
| ▲ | Havoc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >everything tagged as 'uncensored' or 'abliterated' will get wiped from huggingface at some point in the future. Unlikely given how trivial it is to DIY this (I think...haven't myself but from afar it seems within avg hn crowd reach) | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, it'll likely just result in some people standing up a more dedicated purpose community hosting site of abliterated/uncensored open weight GGUF files. In a theoretical scenario where HF bans abliterated/uncensored models I could very well see the same people who are producing those now simply moving the location they upload stuff to. To use an old analogy, it's not rocket science: https://github.com/p-e-w/heretic | |
| ▲ | teaearlgraycold 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was able to remove much of the CCP censorship from Qwen 3.8 27B for around $90 using a LoRA. I multiplied the LoRA in permanently and listed it on HuggingFace. The cost was approximately $80 for generating synthetic data and $10 to create and integrate the LoRA. | | |
| ▲ | nextaccountic 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Shouldn't loras generally be distributed without being baked in the weights? Or is "de-baking" a lora trivial? | | |
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| ▲ | CamperBob2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The main barrier to wider spread adoption of this right now is that very few people have the legit on-prem hardware resources/budget to run something like an abliterated Q8 of deepseek v4.1 flash 1017 Not as bad as you might think. This costs about as much as a decent new car nowadays. The abliterated 1017 release I've seen is crazy good. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I guess it depends if we're talking about decent new car at $40,000 or $95,000? I've seen lots of people claiming they're running v4.1 flash 1017 on local hardware but then it turns out it's something like the unsloth Q2 XXS or similar size. The Q8 is 508GB so assuming for a moment we're not running it on a Mac, we're looking at a cost of five or six 96GB GPUs to load the whole thing with a good sized full context and KV cache. | | |
| ▲ | hgoel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Haven't bothered with DS4.1 personally but I've seen reports of running it with native weights on 4x DGX Sparks. Currently ~$30k but last month that setup was ~$20k. | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 4x 96 GB runs the NVFP4 quants, which are indistinguishable from Q8 in real-world performance for this particular model. That's not always true but DeepSeek is unusually quantization-friendly. Also remember that a big chunk of the model consists of engrams that can live in system RAM or even on an SSD if necessary. I imagine the various GGUFs are still pretty impressive, but haven't tried them myself. |
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| ▲ | KellyCriterion 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > new car ...which is still tooo much for most people to spend on "AI hardware".... | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | More like, the ability to chain a demon in your basement that does what you tell it and can't be rug-pulled by his bosses in San Francisco. | | |
| ▲ | hgoel an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | AI is the endgame for the joke that computing is the act of etching arcane signs into crystal and imbuing them with lightning. | |
| ▲ | walrus01 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Recently saw a hand drawn cartoon to the effect of, a person is asking Claude or chatgpt to do something, it refuses, so the next step is "make the Chinese one do it", and the Chinese model is represented as a chained demon | | |
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| ▲ | SladeReaper an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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