| ▲ | duke_sam 6 hours ago |
| It was an amazing achievement for the students list movement to get such a diverse group of new politicians elected. I’m very curious to see how government formation without a figurehead/leader goes. Most parliamentary democracies assume you are electing a person with the knowledge/hope the party leader will be sitting in the big chair at the end. Most also put a lot of power in that person’s hands with backbenchers sidelined from the day to day running. I really hope their success carries over into governance. |
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| ▲ | akie 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I love that they won and I love the hope and expectation surrounding their victory but MAN have you ever SEEN a working group of 80 academics? There's definitely a chance of failure here. |
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| ▲ | necovek 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I laughed out loud at this — my dad is a retired Uni professor, so I know exactly what you are talking about — but I'd point out that the "student list" has around 140 seats in the parliament, so 80 academics hopefully still has another 60 common sense people who are not all about being right all the time, and who bring other perspectives too. | | |
| ▲ | evek an hour ago | parent [-] | | Umm, you might want to read a but on the (new) opposition, ex 12+ years of total unchecked control. |
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| ▲ | Bombthecat 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I didn't, but I saw a friend go into a week long alcohol session because he wanted to leave academics and couldn't take it anymore... It must be like a pit fight, but with connections and half truths | | |
| ▲ | skeeter2020 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | "in academics the in-fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so low" - interesting to see what happens now that that stakes are just democracy and an entire country! | |
| ▲ | fsloth 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean the whole point of democratic system _is_ you want rotating cliques and infighting. Because defaulting to consensus isn't really that democratic. The large blocks need to be able to move forward in legislation but the more uglier and tumultuous the backroom dealing are (within legal bounds) the healthier the democracy is. | | |
| ▲ | necovek 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I believe this is also what colours our views of the general academic infighting — academics are rarely rotated out except in the lower ranks, so it's a different type of skillset of building long-term alliances that drives their progression through the academic field and available careers in a particular institution (not even talking about "academic points" through publishing in recognized journals, which is a different discussion altogether — even with that criteria satisfied, to move to the next rank of professorship, you need to be elected by your colleagues). Basically, academic tenure is opposite from democracy. | | | |
| ▲ | toyg 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The tension between effectiveness (cohesive decisions swiftly implemented) and representation (complex reduction of utterly disparate points of view to a workable compromise) is the main force at the core of democracy. Most of the electorate doesn't really understand it, constantly clamoring for one or the other to be the only guiding principle, but you need both - and one has to find a way even when they appear completely irreducible. Democracy is beautiful in a very messy way, a bit like nature. |
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| ▲ | Danox 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There’s a chance of failure in any human endeavor. but I am sick of lawyers, bankers, landlords, lobbyists and various other grifters hanging on currently in most western governments no one can say that they haven’t had their chance. There needs to be a wider variety of professions involved at/in the legislative branch. | |
| ▲ | skeeter2020 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | which is why one or more gravitate to academic administrator, eventually become a professional politician and we're right back to where we started. In the meantime either something exciting or absolutely nothing might happen! | |
| ▲ | runarberg 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A group of 80 academics sounds like the level of dysfunction that can only be superseded by a group of 80 politicians. | |
| ▲ | Brendinooo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Winning was easy, young man. Governing's harder." | |
| ▲ | cmurf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They need historians and political scientists, and maybe some politicians, to constantly remind them not to allow perfection to be the enemy of good. It is not always obvious how to lay ground work over a decade ... or four of them. It isn't even mostly about fixing problems. But how to make government act as an expedient rather than as an impediment. | |
| ▲ | iLoveOncall 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Seems pretty obvious to me that it's not going to be 80 academics debating everything under the sun, but instead dedicated groups focusing on their expertise area... | |
| ▲ | HPsquared 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Liable to get hoodwinked by "academic publisher" types. | |
| ▲ | scotty79 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > MAN have you ever SEEN a working group of 80 academics? As compared to what? A working group of 80 uneducated idiots? If democracy doesn't work if you put smart, educated people in control then it doesn't work, period and we need to pay better attention to whatevere China is doing. | |
| ▲ | vconnor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because a working group of 80 career politicians is more effective? | | |
| ▲ | christophilus 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe. Politics is a skill, and not everyone has a knack for it. It’s dirty, requires compromise, and a willingness to work with your opponents. Or, well, at least it used to. | | |
| ▲ | palata 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Politics is a skill It very much is, but I don't believe it is the skill of "solving problems" or "making society better". Politics is about getting elected. Convincing the people that it's all the others' fault, that you know better, that you will save the world. And then when they get elected... we naively expect them to solve problems. But we selected them for their capacity at being selected, not their capacity at understanding the big problems society is facing... | | |
| ▲ | II2II 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That is an overly cynical view. A lot of the problem can be attributed to voters accepting the blame game, overly simplistic solutions, and expedient absolutist views over debating a plurality of options. I'm not saying that the political system isn't to blame here. At least where I live, it is structured in such a way that winner takes all and loyalty to the party is more heavily rewarded than representing the constituent. But, again, that is a system that we in some sense designed. | |
| ▲ | ninkendo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Politics is about getting elected There's a lot under the umbrella of "politics" that happens after you get elected. If you want to accomplish anything after you get elected (heck, even if it's just personal enrichment) you have to be somewhat skilled at getting others to work with you, one way or another. As a politician you can have flawless convictions and be right and well-informed about all your decisions, but at the end of the day you're just one vote (to use legislators as an example) and it does nothing if you can't convince or work with others. | | |
| ▲ | hibikir 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It depends on the political system. In many a parliamentary system, voting differently than what you are told means you will not be in the party list ever again, so for the day to day, there's very little convincing effort when you have the majority. And especially in systems where there is very little legal money in politics, the carrot is just ability to get access for not-so-legal money. So party leadership is a matter of having enough businessmen friends, and having will to power in a rather unclean word. The whole "you are just one vote" doesn't really apply there. As the 30th legislator on your party list, you show up and vote as you are told. And in systems like the one in the US, barring rare moments, it's also not all that different. The card that your party will abandon you, and that if you want a position of any importance you have to play ball means many a junior congressperson just votes as they are told, and spends time fundraising. |
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| ▲ | scns 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Democracy is a popularity contest | | |
| ▲ | dghlsakjg 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes. That’s kind of the point. The words aren’t that far apart in etymology either. By Latin definitions the most popular (liked by the general public) candidate will be the democratically chosen (rule by the people) one. | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes but the hope is we can make the popularity center on the solutions and ability to execute them. |
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| ▲ | amiga386 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | CHA is not a dump stat. Getting elected is table stakes and shows you have the soft skills needed to organise, campaign and convince. Which is the minimum you need to get disparate groups of humans to pull in the same direction and make progress in advancing the country. Theres no consolation if you get experts to plan solutions to problems but 1) the people you need to implement the plans have their own opinions or priorities and 2) the public want focus in some other priority and are start rioting if they don't feel heard. You need schmoozers as much as you need tacticians. | | |
| ▲ | chunky1994 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are two largely non-overlapping skillsets when it comes to politics and governance.
The soft skills being effective means you can get elected, that does not mean they are good at governing (and is often a detriment to having good solutions and governance). I don't currently have any data that says otherwise and the counterfactual remains unexplored (but it will be with this parliament!), but things that people do and say to get elected often are things that if implemented...would not solve the problems the populace that elected is having. I don't think we need schmoozers, we need people who understand the problems of their populace and have the structural power to implement their solutions. We shall see if they need more than this, but this would be the first exploration of the counterfactual. People who have their "own" priorities don't end up upsetting the apple cart when we make success in implementing those solutions the same as their success (which if we are effective problem solvers, should be possible. See Deng Xiaoping) |
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| ▲ | hugodan 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | great comment, poetic and to the point |
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| ▲ | t0bia_s 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Competence of democratic politicians is to be liked and get most votes. Usually it means to be without values. I hope more people will realize that voting for uknown politicians that offers empty promises for artificially made problems means givig up our responsibility and at the end, make things worse as we see in current democratic countries. | | | |
| ▲ | ykonstant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In some clusters, senior academics are exactly like that. | | |
| ▲ | blks 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And in many others they’re small czars of their own kingdoms. However it’s always nice to refresh parliaments with new educated people, with new progressive political movements, shatter old alliances and practices. | |
| ▲ | 331c8c71 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's an understatement... |
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| ▲ | enaaem 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The “skill” of career politicians is mostly loyalty and appointing people based on loyalty is the worst criteria. | |
| ▲ | subscribed 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I would assume PhD holding people are smart enough to understand their limitations and strengths. They've been elected during a very special events. They know what's expected of them. Looks like compared to the previous powers this lot at least gives the country a fighting chance. | | |
| ▲ | xandrius 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ehhh, that's the flaw in the logic. Holding a PhD doesn't necessarily make you better at anything other than strictly the topic of the PhD (and sometimes not even that), maybe only following arbitrary orders from senior figures. | | |
| ▲ | chunky1994 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Holding a PhD at the very least means you can spend a sustained long amount of time on (potentially) intractable problems and try to arrive at solutions for them. That's a good skill to have when...you've been elected to solve problems. |
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| ▲ | ryu2k2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We'd be living in a better world if politics was a skill and our politicians were good at it. | | |
| ▲ | Avicebron 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think he means polticians lying, being trecherous, compromising until nothing gets done and no ones career is hurt, etc is a skill. It would be better for the people if people with these skills were not in public office. Anything that takes away from being a servant to the constituents and become self-service needs to be removed from Politics. |
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| ▲ | dghughes 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | One could even say politics is also a science. | |
| ▲ | g-b-r 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not sure if it used to be like that, but the skill required to politicians now is to get themselves elected, and that largely means the ability to lie well |
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| ▲ | eagleal 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Management is basically 99% people's relations/network. It doesn't matter how good the technical implementations are at the top, if they don't have the knowledge and capacity to enforce it downstream from middle layer to the base. There's so much people involved whose interests are farmed by your competitors. Imposing it top down requires oppression. Imposing or pressuring this huge layer from the bottom requires a continuously updated base so you can squeeze from the top and the bottom to enact the changes needed quickly. It's impossible for leaders at the top, to personally vet the members of a village or city council for example. I think I've never seen any of such concatenation of events and organization to have ever happened. | |
| ▲ | necovek 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I believe this is the usual tension that's present even in private companies: are professional managers better than field experts at managing work? The pure ideal is to get a field expert who is good at management — but sometimes hard to attain! The question then really becomes if — for a manager — a senior expert is better
than an experienced manager who can detect exactly when to pull in the experts? A great manager would be great, but these are similarly rare (rarer than good experts in a field). And this is probably always on a case-by-case basis: it completely depends on the circumstances, individual qualities, and supporting people around them to decide which is better for a given situation. The same holds here: the best you can get is an expert with a wide grasp of the entire field they will be active in, supported by good, smart common-sense people to manage and guide their thinking and solutioning in the right way. | |
| ▲ | gojogs 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Before you ask, Gyúcsány was better | |
| ▲ | meerita 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is an interesting experiment, although I wouldn't call it a technocracy just yet. Italy had technocratic governments under Mario Monti and, to a lesser extent, Mario Draghi, with mixed results. Having highly educated people in parliament is one thing; actually governing a country is another. Political leadership requires negotiation, compromise, institutional knowledge, and the ability to execute decisions. I'm curious to see how Serbia handles the transition from academic expertise to actual governance, especially without a conventional party leadership structure. |
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| ▲ | szundi 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | grafmax 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| US government organizations such as USAID and the CIA-adjacent National Endowment for "Democracy" backed this movement to the tune of millions of dollars, funding "civil society groups" and other NGOs. Yet supposedly it is spontaneous and grassroots, and we wonder how its governance will be decided. |
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| ▲ | Brendinooo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It was an amazing achievement Yeah, the thing that really strikes me is that their movement _did not exist_ in the last election. Went from scratch to power in three years. Whatever you want to say about their politics or their ability to lead...sure. But that's an incredible thing to do. |
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| ▲ | ifwinterco 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It simply can't work, somebody ultimately has to be in charge of a 15 person startup, it is literally impossible to run a country via committee |
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| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The exact opposite is true. The only consistently working, stable democracies do not have a single leader of the executive branch, e.g. Switzerland. The CIA sponsored extensive studies on this and came to the conclusion that democracies with a strong presidential role are associated with a greater risk of failure. It's not really surprising, and it can be seen in the US right now. | | |
| ▲ | qwytw 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The only consistently working, stable democracies do not have a single leader of the executive branch, e.g. Switzerland. That system had to develop organically over many generations to be successful (in the case of Switzerland it was 500+ years with only a few significant interruptions) . In a centralized country with no traditions of communal and local politics it can just result in chaos. | | |
| ▲ | kubb 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The system was introduced around 170 years ago and it was done very suddenly after a civil-religious war won by protestant liberals. | | |
| ▲ | qwytw 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | On the federal level yes but that only reduced the autonomy that the cantons had, it didn't introduce a fundamentally different system of government, most decisions were still taken on the local level. |
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| ▲ | consensus1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The system we had in the US pre New Deal was much more like Switzerland. Decentralization works just fine out of the box. The problem is that human instinct tends towards power which requires more centralization to accumulate. |
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| ▲ | CMay 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes and no. The US presidency is very different than the way it's reported on, but it is true that the executive branch is being more assertive to make up for the disfunction of the legislation. We're doing that intentionally and for good reason, to demonstrate to China that the US can act with speed as one small part of the overall deterrent against World War 3. The US is almost always hugely misunderstood, because there isn't any other country in the world that actually works exactly like the US does. |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The ancient Roman republic (i.e. pre-Caesar) did just fine run by the senate without any emperor (they were vehemently opposed to the idea of putting so much power in the hands of one individual). One of the ways they made this work was by assigning temporary powers to elected/appointed individuals appropriate and sufficient to get their job done, whether that was provincial governor, tribunus plebis, consul or whatever. A notable title was that of "dictator" (where the modern word derives from) which gave sweeping temporary powers to a general sufficient to execute a war. Julius Caesar famously abused this system, effectively becoming the first emperor (despite no such position existing) by assuming the title of "dictator perpetuo" (perpetual dictator), although that did not end well for him. His successor, Augustus (whose adopted name later became the name of the office of emperor) initiated a more acceptable version of this by simultaneously holding multiple "elected" positions thereby having the power of them all. | | |
| ▲ | consensus1 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The Roman Republic was incredibly decentralized with more people working for the administration of the city of Rome than for the Roman state itself at the time of Caesar's conquest of Gaul. Extreme executive power existed, but not at the level of the imperial administration. Provincial governors had near absolute power and generals had control over their armies to a degree well beyond what any general today has. They were basically private mercenaries with the generals, not the state, being in charge of payroll for the soldiers. Local territories had near 100% control of their own affairs so long as they did not do anything to interfere with the tribute flowing to Rome. This became more centralized over time and as it did more executive power was needed at the top level. Augustus centralized the army under state control. Emperors in the late empire had nearly dictatorial authority and a massive state bureaucracy under their control. | |
| ▲ | qwytw 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The ancient Roman republic (i.e. pre-Caesar) did just fine run by the senate without any emperor If you don't count the 80 years of off and on civil wars and political and social upheavals. > and sufficient to get their job done Well they were extremely successful military, internal politics were a mixed bag and it slowly turned into chaos and constant gridlock as soon as they ran out of external enemies to fight. Rome had an arcane deeply adversarial political system which basically relied different powerful men in the elite competing and keeping each other in check while trying to amass as much wealth and political power they could get away with (Ceasar was hardly an aberration besides just being way more successful than countless aristocrats playing the same game). > effectively becoming the first emperor (despite no such position existing) by assuming the title of "dictator perpetuo" (perpetual dictator), Sula did that first, in many ways Caesar just emulated him (of course the decision to not murder all of this potential enemies came back to bite him) | | |
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| ▲ | DrProtic 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And they won't, system in Serbia is still the same - they will form ministries and prime minister leading them. They will choose who will that be by a committee, but after that they have to function as usual. | |
| ▲ | vanderZwan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nice example of Poe's Law. I genuinely can't tell if this is a sincere comment written by someone who spent too much time in the start-up bubble, or a satirical comment on that type of person said by someone who very much aware that start-ups are just one of many ways humans can organize themselves and who knows that parliamentary politics is nothing like that for very good reasons. But I do find it hilarious that apparently everyone assumes it to be the former, and that is quite telling about how most of this site's visitors think the other visitors of this site look at the world. | |
| ▲ | varun_ch 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Switzerland effectively runs via committee | | | |
| ▲ | AdamN 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The constitution will necessitate a certain structure so it's not like "it can't work". It is working and then at some point soon the structure will be reified and some will be given more power and different portfolios than others. | |
| ▲ | stackbutterflow 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A country is not a business. The goals are different. The levers and constraints are different. | |
| ▲ | corroclaro 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean ... most countries are run by some sort of committee hierarchy / supervisor chain. Having consulted at many different levels of govt. over here in Europe, I can tell you there are way more committee decisions than Executive directives. In many cases, the executives / politicians / directors just rubber stamp what a working group / committee has decided. Also, see the Tomato guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqUBdX1d3ok |
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| ▲ | geraneum 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Most parliamentary democracies assume you are electing a person with the knowledge/hope the party leader will be sitting in the big chair at the end. In Germany the focus is usually on the parties and not the figurehead for over 70 years now. edit: for the election |
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| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fun fact: The US has only had one academic hold the presidency. He is also considered to be the worst US president in history. Academics don't have a great track record in politics or governance pretty much anywhere at anytime in history. |
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| ▲ | tensor 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | What anti-intellectual horse shit. Carney has a PhD in economics, for one. But there are many: Tomáš Masaryk, Manmohan Singh, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Ricardo Lagos, Mary Robinson, Lee Teng-hui, Tsai Ing-wen, Mario Draghi, Angela Merkel, Claudia Sheinbaum. All these people have been been at the forefront of b ringin freedom, democracy, and well being to their populations. If anything, the "fun facts" show that academics can make great leaders. | |
| ▲ | FLHerne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Considered by whom - you? Most surveys, either of experts or the public, rank Wilson above average. Worst are generally Buchanan, Johnson, Harding and of course Trump. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_preside... | |
| ▲ | dmd 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I didn't know Trump held an academic appointment. (Other than John G. Trump, I mean.) | | |
| ▲ | Dracophoenix 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | He means Woodrow Wilson. | | |
| ▲ | dmd 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | well aware | | |
| ▲ | hedora 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Wilson isn't even bottom ten on the lists I could find. He got the US through WWI and helped establish the league of nations. His other accomplishments include the ftc, federal reserve, antitrust law, the farm act, US income tax, a precursor to the new deal and he lowered tariffs. Wikipedia says he's generally regarded as above average, and the most successful progressive until the New Deal. He was certainly much better than any president the US has had in the last 73 years. JFK is arguable both ways - no one after that is. Here's a survey of stack rankings of US presidents: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_preside... The worst score Woodrow Wilson gets across all the rankings in the survey is 15. The best rating a post-Regan republican gets is 18. If we ignore Regan (still rated much worse than Wilson on average), we have to go all the way back to Dwight Eisenhower to find a Republican whose best score is better than Wilson's worst score. The Democrats fare better. Truman and FDR clearly ranked better. If we ignore them, the next democrat is... Woodrow Wilson. Put another way, of the last 20 presidents, Wilson is ranked 3 or 4. On the other hand, Trump is a Doctor of Business and a Doctor of Laws according the Liberty University. Surely, the poster meant Trump. They're a great school. The best schools. |
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| ▲ | rightnutwingjob 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > An electrical engineer who has helped design robots. An organic chemist who, during the pandemic, worked on COVID-19 drugs. An education researcher, a sociologist, several political scientists, economists, physicians, and medical researchers. Diverse? Over-educated university graduates is possibly the least diverse set of thinkers one could hope to find. > Dozens of them come from the academic world, and more than half have a Ph.D. or M.D. Lord help up. This is going to be demonstration of hubris and an exercise in arrogance. |
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| ▲ | pacija 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Whatever it is going to be it will hardly be worse than what we had for past 14 years of SNS / Vučić dictatorship. | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, there's plenty of high-profile academic politicians in Europe with debatable legacies including Thatcher and Merkel. Time will tell. A quick search suggests the economists associated with this movement are fairly 'mainstream' institutionalists of the type that's popular with government these days in the west. I don't think there will be big changes soon beyond dealing with corruption/nepotism. Later on, I imagine they will push for faster EU integration on possibly slightly worse terms. Serbia may become marginally less independent in terms of fiscal policy at least and the markets might become even more exposed/beholden to foreign capital. This process has been in motion for years now and I don't expect the student movement to care - the upsides are broadly popular with younger people globally. Personally, I think it is deeply ironic that in the age of tariffs and huge government spending by the superpowers, small countries like Serbia are still signing up to be bound by the 'free market' consensus which is rapidly disintegrating globally. | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's always funny to me when people say "overeducated", as if knowing things is only good up to a point. If you know too much, you suddenly turn bad. | | |
| ▲ | TFNA 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | When people use the term, it is obviously not a reference to just "knowing things" but rather 1) the distinct socialization one gets in academia that leaves one rather divorced from the real world (and I say that as an academic), and 2) hyperspecialization to the point one loses the big picture, a problem in education today. | | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I knew one or two profs like that when I was studying, but the vast majority of people in academia are just regular people with families and interests outside of academia. It's kinda disheartening to see the anti-intellectual bent this discussion has taken. | | |
| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've worked and known many, many academics in my life. I'm sorry, but if you think this is anti-intellectual, then there are some basic things you don't understand about people. Academics really are naive and out of touch people. In a weird sort of way, being an academic means sacrificing your personal growth for either a) a deep love of their area of research or b) love of teaching. This means that the wider life skills one gains as an adult, they never get. They get to avoid consequences for being wrong but at quite a price. One of the worst things I have seen are what happens to academics who leave for the private sector later in their career. When they can't make it in the private sector, it is pretty crushing to many of them. That being said, one of the prices of being an academics is being very "out of touch" with the rest of society. And that will take away your ability to read political situations or govern things well. Academics injecting themselves into such situations will almost always be disastrous as a result. Its just a consequence of how academia works. It doesn't have to be that way, but unless academia changes profoundly, it will be. | | |
| ▲ | TFNA 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As an OP here, I'd like to mention that I don't agree with this characterization at all. When I said academics are divorced from the real world, I was speaking of them largely conforming to particular demographics that make them a bit blind to broader trends in electoral politics and culture. Academics do just fine picking up "adult life skills". Only a small minority of academics find academic employment from their mid-thirties or so on, so everyone moves to other sectors for the rest of their lives. It is not as if they are just hapless misfits or on the dole for the rest of their lives. | |
| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > there are some basic things you don't understand about people. > Academics really are naive and out of touch people That's a hilarious juxtaposition of sentences. |
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| ▲ | BoingBoomTschak 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > but the vast majority of people in academia are just regular people with families and interests outside of academia If most people realized that, we would have much less problems: academics are often shrouded in an aura of virtue and wisdom they don't deserve in the least. Like what you see in this thread, that their narrow (or worse, illusory) knowledge will somehow help them being good rulers/leaders. |
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| ▲ | watwut an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > distinct socialization one gets in academia that leaves one rather divorced from the real world It is absurd claim. Academia is part of real world. It is not an isolated island cut off from everything else. It is no more divorced from real world then any other group of people. No more divorced then rural farmer are divorced from it, businessmen are divorced from it, sports fans are divorced from it. They are all having limits of understanding other groups. Tech workers as likely more divorced from average person even. | | |
| ▲ | MentalM a minute ago | parent [-] | | That is true. The problem is not in that they are divorced from the real world. The problem is in the model that science get financial support, which leads to the existence of filtering that eliminates from the science anyone who is not far-left loyal dog and supporter of the "current thing". |
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| ▲ | OroPla 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A Jack of all trades is a master of none, but better than a master of one because he has broad, intersectional knowledge. Academia is designed for specialization and the more you specialize in something the more you lose the forest for the trees. Everything looks like a nail if you are a hammer and all that. https://www.oglaf.com/labyrinth/ | | |
| ▲ | simsla 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | While the extreme "master of one" exists, most academics I know have cross-cutting interests. We also shouldn't forget that the vast majority of politicians today are lawyers by education. To whatever degree your assumption holds, it is true of the status quo today as well. Even in that case, having a more diverse set of "masters of one" would be an improvement. | | |
| ▲ | simsla 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Slight correction (can't edit): law education is most common for politicians in Western countries, but not the majority. For the US, 32% of the house and 47% of the senate holds a law degree. |
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| ▲ | consensus1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Academic credentials and knowledge have very little correlation. A master electrician knows things. So does an airline pilot in charge of hundreds of lives. Yet neither has letters after their name. | | |
| ▲ | hippogod an hour ago | parent [-] | | Aren’t the letters after their names essentially signifying their level of understanding on a subject? Just like “Master” before electrician or “Captain” or “PIC” for airline pilots. |
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| ▲ | fg137 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are more ardent second amendment supporters among tenured professors in US universities than you think. | |
| ▲ | iLoveOncall 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why are russian bots always so easy to spot? | |
| ▲ | reeredfdfdf 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Still beats the alternative of corrupt career politicians. | | | |
| ▲ | dmantis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Average professional politician is a psychopath fighting for power no matter what. At least these guys might be honest about their hubris and arrogance and won't smile to you while slaughtering your future or robbing your family. | | |
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