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▲ cadamsdotcom 5 hours ago

Here's a thought experiment: why is it that I can't do long division?

The Calculator!

Calculators deskilled long division!

Thing is though: who gives a damn about long division? The real task is your taxes or making a massive BI report for your presentation tomorrow.

AI makes stuff that was hard - someone's bread and butter - possible to ask for and have done for you. Why bother staying skilled at those things when you can broaden? It clears the way for tasks that used to take forever to become something to steamroll through on your way to a much greater outcome. It's the micro way that, in the macro, humanity becomes far more capable as a species. The gates are being flung wide open and the gatekeepers are being lapped and they have blogs!

It's not a tragedy, it's universal access to leverage.

▲jacquesm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> why is it that I can't do long division?

> The Calculator!

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I have a calculator and some pretty neat computing hardware. If I go into the attic and search long enough I can probably find my old sliderule. I can also do long division, as can all of my kids. I think it is an essential skill to understand all basic mathematical operations, and to be able to use them on small data sets. If I didn't know how to do division without a calculator I would consider that a failure of my basic education.

Edit: "HackerNews" and people can't do long division??

▲tripleee 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think a closer analogy would be forgetting basic arithmetic as a concept. Imagine how hard it would be to work with more complex math without understanding what division is. How do you prompt the genie, or understand its outputs, without the foundational knowledge?

▲win311fwg 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Is basic arithmetic something that can be forgotten? Studies have suggested that even infants have an understanding of basic arithmetic. There is a reasonable likelihood that it is something innate.

As we're only imagining anyway, let's ignore the genie for a moment. If we did lose our sense of basic arithmetic all of a sudden what would life at its core even be like? If there were two apples on a table you wouldn't be able to comprehend what happens if you took one. Would we even be able to function like that?

▲tripleee 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You're taking the analogy too literally. The point that I'm trying to make is that in math, and a lot of areas, is that concepts build upon one another. To understand something at a 7/10 of complexity it first needs you to understand the 6/10 concepts that it builds upon.

▲win311fwg 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I believe it is more than you've missed the forest for the trees. You haven't accurately explained what understanding means. One might not rigorously understand x÷x=1 but still 'naturally' see that having two apples and taking one leaves one. And that's the thing: The genie, as in LLMs, are analogy machines so you can approach problems without a formal understanding as long as you can grasp the analogies. We have real world proof with 'vibe coders' producing incredibly complex math without much formal understanding of it. They know how to describe the input and interpret the output using words that relate to everyday things that they are familiar with, much like the apples on the table, and it accomplishes their goal.

Perhaps there is a limit, sure, but I suppose that's where you lead with a concrete example to explain where that line is.

▲ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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▲alerighi 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> in the macro, humanity becomes far more capable as a species

Not humanity, a small number of people in this planet, will benefit about this, because now they no longer have to depend on under payed workers to do the job, and will use AI to make the lives of all other human being poorer.

I think that we need to oppose this tech dictatorship, first thing stopping using AI and thus stop depending on an handful of companies that are able to provide it, that while they gain more and more power we all gets poorer.

What was wrong in using our brain, in the end? I still use my brain on my job and I always will, maybe one day they will say that there is no more need of computer experts because AI can do everything (still people bring me their laptop to reinstall Windows, something I've done for 20 years and that AI didn't change), I will just find another job but I will refuse to use this AI shit.

▲Roonerelli 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the analogy doesn't work unless your role means having to occasionally do long division, on the spot, without a calculator

▲cadamsdotcom 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Just to be clear are you suggesting one might find oneself without a clanker?

Where're you doing your debugging? The tundra??

▲233mhz 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can own a calculator for $2, good luck owning your own frontier model

▲manofmanysmiles 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Of all the comments on this post, this landed the most.

I feel there is a potential to "distill" the frontier models into useful tools that can run on smaller hardware. Or distill that knowledge to produce hardware, compute or otherwise. Iff one day the frontier model become inaccessible, the tools that were carved with them may remain valuable.

They will remain most valuable if they are designed in a way that is maintainable even without LLMs. If not, they can be studied as artifacts, or reference designs and then recreated using human intelligence.

The analog I'm playing with:

You can rent time at a high end machine shop and use the best CNC machines to produce extremely valuable tools. Once you leave, you don't have access to those tools, so it is advantageous to produce durable artifacts that are valuable on their own — on a different frontier.

Imagine you're going beyond the frontier physically, exploring new parts of the earth or space. You can't bring the giant machine shop, let alone the machinery of society, the entire economy etc. What do you bring? What do you build now while you have access to the best machines to take with you?

▲tehjoker 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You still need to be able to do long division so you can tell when you screwed up on the calculator.

▲empath75 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nobody can read a map anymore, either. Or operate a loom, etc, etc.

▲maddie0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I recently won the red ribbon, second place, at the Lambtown fiber festival, for my lovely skein of undyed handspun yarn. Weaving it is next. However, I am probably an outlier, and should not be counted.

(It was a full 250g of this fantastical kempy Herdwick, absolutely unlike anything you can get commercially, and I'm honestly more proud of it than of anything I built in six years working at NVIDIA.)

▲debo_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a poor analogy because I don't think your inability to do long division will cause as much damage as an inability to bring the site back up in an emergency situation.

▲cadamsdotcom 4 hours ago | parent [-]

If a team can't bring the site back up in an emergency situation that's poor planning, not poor debugging.

Planning for mitigation before resolution lets a team address production issues at leisure (because the customer impact is mitigated)

All this knowledge is in your agent - ask it for ideas!

▲ToucanLoucan 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Except as every damn AI app says: AI is prone to making mistakes. If AI deskills you with a non-zero chance of getting the problem wrong, that seems deeply, profoundly bad.

You can type the same long division problem into a calculator 65,000 times and you will get the right answer 65,000 times.

Can AI get even CLOSE to that?

▲cadamsdotcom 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Computing tapped out on sources of leverage for solving deterministic problems a while ago. Computers got fast and our algorithms got really good.

We're on to the next frontier, and it's a bit weird. Jagged frontier and all. But it's opening up new worlds.

Luckily loads of problems are amenable to a non-deterministic approach - even better, many have lots of solutions. SRE is in that bucket. There are as many ways to SRE as there are SREs

(source: one of the first SREs at Uber, co-invented Chaos Engineering as a sub-branch of SRE, hosted first chaos eng conf at Uber, played a key role in Uber's global SRE and incident response "Ring0" initiative, managed many SRE teams over a period of roughly 7 years before a career pivot. You could say I know a thing or two about SRE.)

To SRE well you look at the situation and pull from a huge range of tools. With such a broad range of solves, you're better to focus on the outcome: did we achieve our SLOs? Are they aligned with customer expectations? Focus on defining that and providing the right support for it to be achieved and you'll be fine - you might even get a surprise.