I am still a fan of centrifugal systems. The lifecycle costs of a spinning mass seem more manageable than the complexities of chemical batteries. The mass of a block of concrete and steal isn't going to degrade over time. And bearings/motors are such mature tech that they can last decades, even a century without replacement.

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nixon_why69 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you're going mechanical, why not pumped water storage instead? Nothing has to spin super fast and hydro has a lot of maturity.

(From a guy who got burned buying stock in a centrifugal system as my first "wicked smaht" investment as a 22yo).

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stefs 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

there are areas where almost all options for pumped hydro are already developed and there's little room for expansion. additionally, the heat waves from the climate catastrophe affects pumped hydro negatively (evaporation and higher water temperature).

	▲	tpm 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Evaporation can be solved by covering the reservoirs, so the water can't evaporate. Geography is the real issue. Costs to build possibly too.

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grumbelbart2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mostly because we already used all suitable places. It also has a huge environmental impact, large upfront costs that you can only spend in bulk, permissions, lawsuits, protests from the local population and so forth.

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sandworm101 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hydro is limited by geography. It cannot scale in the same way. Rather than giant spinning masses at central locations, current thinking is more about smaller masses scattered throughout a grid. There are even a few studies on whether existing air conditioner/heat pump compressors could contribute.

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rgarrett88 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maintenance on high energy movement hasn't exactly had a great track record either.

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detourdog an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There was a giant flywheel company near me about 20 years ago. Maybe it's still there. They had one incident where a flywheel broke.

https://beaconpower.com/stephentown-new-york/

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angry_octet 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's a very long waiting list for new synchronous condensers, almost 5 years from order to delivery.

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toomuchtodo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Batteries can serve the same function, while also providing energy arb and additional grid services, so I'm somewhat curious how log the market for syncons continues to exist.

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sandworm101 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Batteries (and their associated HV switching gear) are slow to react and have very limited lifespans, on the order of a few years. That's why your washing machine uses a capacitor to start its motor rather than a battery. Even capacitors are not as reactive as an already spinning mass.

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sanderjd 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How are you defining "slow" in this comment?

My understanding is that batteries are demonstrating longer useful lifetimes than was anticipated.

Ultimately I think diversity in technologies is the best policy, but difficult to set up the incentives to achieve it.

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toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Both assertions are false. Batteries react within milliseconds [1], and last 10-20 years (depending on chemistry and cycling, lithium at the shorter end, sodium and flow at the longer end) [2] [3] [4]. Australia had to reconfigure its ancillary services market due to how fast battery storage reacts, for example (proven out with the Hornsdale Power Reserve).

Please update priors to current state of the art.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50176

- The most common cited use case for batteries is frequency response. Frequency response is a service that maintains grid frequency as close to 60 hertz (Hz) as reasonably possible. Deviations below 60 Hz can lead to protective generator trips that result in a subsequent decline in system stability. Batteries are particularly well suited for frequency regulation because their output does not require any startup time and batteries can quickly absorb surges. At the end of 2020, 885 MW of battery storage capacity (59% of total utility-scale battery capacity) cited frequency response as a use case.

[2] Smith, J. et al. "Lithium - ion battery degradation mechanisms and mitigation strategies for utility - scale energy storage". Journal of Energy Storage, 2020.

[3] Brown, A. "Lead - acid battery performance and lifespan in utility - scale applications". Power Systems Research, 2018.

[4] Green, C. et al. "Flow batteries for long - term utility - scale energy storage: A review". Energy and Environmental Science, 2019.

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adrianN 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Siemens is making a lot of money selling inertial stabilizers. There is ongoing research on how to stabilize grids in the face of decreasing inertial frequency stabilization.

	▲	toomuchtodo 27 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Do you have any resources you can share on how this compares to synthetic inertia battery storage and renewables inverters can provide?

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_blk 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yup. Esp. when space is available. But thet benefit heavily from low pressure environments though so it's not just an arm and a mass in a fence.