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▲ ijustlovemath 6 hours ago

To be fair, in 1987 the unit economics weren't being subsidized by nation-state levels of debt and mandatory usage contracts.

▲olalonde 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The unit economics aren't what's subsidized. Inference is profitable.

▲emp17344 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Didn’t we just get a bunch of data from Anthropic’s IPO showing that inference is not, in fact, profitable? People are still spouting this?

▲CuriouslyC 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The distinction is adjusted vs non-adjusted basis. Serving inference is profitable, but serving inference for the last released model doesn't cover the cost of the model in training.

Dario explained it very clearly in an older interview. If every model is bigger and more expensive to train, each model can individually be profitable, while the company as a whole still shows a loss at any given point in time. This is why he likes the idea of regulation so much, it'll let them take a breather and recoup.

▲clownstrikelol 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Dario explained it very clearly in an older interview. If every model is bigger and more expensive to train, each model can individually be profitable, while the company as a whole still shows a loss at any given point in time.

“We’re profitable as long as you ignore our ever increasing cost of goods sold, we promise it’s not a pyramid scheme” - ~~Charles Ponzi~~ Dario

▲FeepingCreature 4 hours ago | parent [-]

But the reason the cost is ever increasing is the steeply ascending quality. There's no (non-doom) scenario where this game does not end with profitable cheap tokens. Wherever it'll stop scaling, it'll be profitable to serve tokens at that scale. And of course if it doesn't stop scaling, it's the singularity and all this thought of profits is quite secondary.

An industry cannot fail because it's too successful.

edit: Other explanation. The industry has found a moneyprinter. It prints money, and several companies are building them and printing money. However, each one of those companies is cashflow negative, because they're all trying their desperate best to build an even larger moneyprinter. Why? If they don't build it and the next company over does build it, and it works, then company 1 is differentially outcompeted. what's more, the more expensive each moneyprinter is, once a company gets strongly ahead the second company won't get the financing to keep up with that one. ... But it's still moneyprinters. This is not an economic race that ends up with "and thus everyone stopped printing money."

▲clownstrikelol 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> But the reason the cost is ever increasing is the steeply ascending quality.

Sure, if you say so.

> There's no (non-doom) scenario where this game does not end with profitable cheap tokens.

I doubt it.

> Wherever it'll stop scaling, it'll be profitable to serve tokens at that scale.

It’s much more likely, imo, that local AI models will completely destroy the entire business model of inference. For any entity that would be spending enough to replace multiple employees (allegedly), the cost of the hardware to do so is completely affordable. This has the major benefit of eliminating per token costs, and practically guaranteeing that some “AI company” can’t steal your company’s secrets.

At an individual person level, this hardware will take much longer to obtain, but it will happen eventually.

> And of course if it doesn't stop scaling, it's the singularity and all this thought of profits is quite secondary.

I still believe, strongly, that LLMs are the wrong path to AGI. There’s trillions of dollars being put into turning LLMs into AGI; however, there has no zero results showing that LLMs are capable of “learning” anything. “Skills” and expanded context windows don’t count. The “model” needs to be able to modify itself, in real time, for that to be possible.

We’re in a local maxima that strongly refuses to accept that it’s a local maxima. (Diminishing returns for the amount of money poured into “training” is beyond obvious to anyone paying attention).

> An industry cannot fail because it's too successful.

Sure it can. The fossil fuel industry is wildly successful.

It’s also boiling the planet alive, but that’s okay, it’s generating shareholder value so everything’s fine.

Edit for your edit:

> edit: Other explanation. The industry has found a moneyprinter. It prints money, and several companies are building them and printing money. However, each one of those companies is cashflow negative, because they're all trying their desperate best to build an even larger moneyprinter. Why? If they don't build it and the next company over does build it, and it works, then company 1 is differentially outcompeted. what's more, the more expensive each moneyprinter is, once a company gets strongly ahead the second company won't get the financing to keep up with that one. ... But it's still moneyprinters. This is not an economic race that ends up with "and thus everyone stopped printing money."

By your own definition it is impossible to achieve profitability without an ever increasing amount of money flowing into it.

There was a business about moving stamps around that needed similar levels of cash infusion to sustain itself. Eventually its bubble popped too.

▲phoghed 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Diminishing returns for the amount of money poured into “training” is beyond obvious to anyone paying attention

Sure, if you say so.

▲doctorpangloss 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

it doesn't seem that complicated to me. what do you think the cost is for AWS to serve inference it sells to Anthropic for "$1.00"? I think it's about $0.11. Then, ask yourself, did Amazon sell it to Anthropic at all? No, they traded $0.11 real dollars for $1.00 of Anthropic shares (the CLN that created the real loss Anthropic is talking about), which are now worth $10.00 (which is why people talk about this as a paper loss). So... IS it profitable? It's profitable, but Amazon didn't JUST sell inference when they turned $0.11 into $10.00...

▲SpaceNoodled 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That's a Ponzi scheme.

▲olalonde 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nope, the leak didn't show that.

▲paulddraper 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Where do you think the internet came from?

▲za_creature 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Neither of those things. Arpanet was military and the web came out of CERN, but they were both low budget side projects.

▲doctorpangloss 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

in some kind of boring sense, sure.

but have you looked up who invented the computer? and who was funding all the first versions of the software we use? it was the US military.

▲KellyCriterion 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

...and global usage/reach was practically zero...