> DHS was founded in 2003, as was ICE. The country got along for 227 years without these organizations

Almost like something happened shortly before then that caused a seismic shift in our national security posture…

kec a day ago | parent | next [-]

The fact that 9/11 happened does not imply that DHS and ICE as currently structured and operating are necessary. At most it implies _some_ change might have been necessary, but not definitely _this_ change. It certainly doesn't mean we can never look for reform.

	▲	mcmcmc a day ago \| parent [-]
		> The fact that 9/11 happened does not imply that DHS and ICE as currently structured and operating are necessary. Never said that it does. I’m not in favor of the domestic surveillance dragnet or Trump’s usage of ICE as shock troops and bodysnatchers. Reform is absolutely needed; eliminating the functions of DHS and ICE entirely is foolhardy. The lies and propaganda painting all immigrants as violent radicals don’t change the reality that there is a subset of evil people intent on doing harm.

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Vaushite a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

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grandpajoey a day ago | parent | prev [-]

The biggest false flag of all time, which led directly to the fascist policies we're talking about and the death of millions of innocent people in the Middle East? I wonder who benefited from that huh?

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mcmcmc a day ago | parent [-]

Either you don’t know what a false flag is or you are way off the conspiracy deep end. Terrorism has always existed, modern society has just made it easier to kill en masse. America’s misadventures in the Middle East definitely instigated the conflict and the attacks but it’s factually incorrect to imply 9/11 was orchestrated by the US

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grandpajoey a day ago | parent [-]

I couldn't disagree more. This has been the modus operandi of Zionists since the invasion of Palestine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

And if you want a US non-Zionist false flag (that literally started the Vietnam war):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

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mcmcmc a day ago | parent [-]

You sound nuts. I’m not denying the existence of false flags. There is zero evidence to support a false flag theory for 9/11. The intelligence failures were a result of organizational inefficiency and incompetence, not malice.

Given the intense scrutiny of the event you’d think there’d be some evidence if it was actually a false flag, no? It’s pure fantasy. Frankly it’s more likely the 9/11 conspiracy theories are planted by Russian operatives to sow dissent.

	▲	grandpajoey a day ago \| parent [-]
		There's actually a ton of evidence to support 9/11 being a false flag. Dancing Israelis, arrested Israelis (did you know we deported hundreds of them immediately after 9/11 for spying?), everything having to do with Larry Silverstein and Howard Lutnick, George Bush meeting with Osama Bin Laden's brother on 9/10... and of course Israel being the only party that benefited from 9/11. All of this is easy to verify and well documented. I'll add that Netanyahu/mossad regularly brag about psyops and false flags. Netanyahu was just on 60 Minutes talking about how they can plant false evidence on your phone roughly a month ago. Did you know that Larry Silverstein was good friends with Netanyahu and talked to him every week before 9/11? Don't take my word for it, Haaretz did a now deleted article on him: https://archive.ph/R1Yzw