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▲ jacquesm a day ago

I think public transport should be free. That solves the whole problem because it makes no sense to dis-incentivize the use of public transport to begin with and the fares are disproportionally hard on the lowest earners.

▲kccqzy a day ago | parent | next [-]

Absolutely not. People don’t appreciate free things psychologically. When they don’t appreciate it they trash it: vandalism, littering will all become bigger problems.

To prevent this effect, you have to have a well educated population first. That’s actually an even more difficult problem to solve.

▲wafflemaker a day ago | parent | next [-]

>I think public transport should be free.

>Absolutely not.

I think that having it very cheap compared to quality and service delivered is the best of both worlds.

▲kccqzy 18 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s already the case in reality. The NYC Subway’s $3 fare is quite low for example. Just like roads are taxpayer subsidized, public transportation is almost always subsidized. (Some countries like China have heavier subsidies though.)

▲heohk a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Limits. You put limits in place.

Don't give endless free fair, give n free fair per day.

▲ButlerianJihad 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In the Phoenix Metro area, the fares are capped, so you never pay beyond the cap for daily, weekly, or monthly fares.

If you ride and pay your fare twice, then every ride after that, for the rest of the day, is free. That is very nice. So if you commute and you have a transfer, and you're taking 4 rides per day, then you're saving half of that in fares.

In the old days, you would pay a cash fare and the bus operator could issue a paper transfer ticket. The transfer would be good for a few hours. So your fare was basically per-trip. But the system couldn't track people paying cash fares like that, so there were no free rides without the transfer ticket. If you took two trips a day, like a normal commute, you'd pay at least two fares. Now, with pre-loaded cards or fares on the mobile app, you can track all that stuff, and reload when necessary.

For disabled people or whoever qualifies for "Reduced Fare", your fare costs half ($1.00 instead of $2.00) and so your daily maximum is only $2.00. A really good deal.

▲em-bee 18 hours ago | parent [-]

technically, possessing two transfer tickets from the same day could be used as proof that you paid enough for the day.

vienna has day tickets that cost as much as two single tickets but you can only buy them on a strip of 8 which you can use one day at a time over an unlimited period

▲ButlerianJihad 18 hours ago | parent [-]

No, they were not proof of anything. They were nearly worthless, and people discarded them all the time. You could collect a fistful of them on and around the bus.

Anyway, that is not how the fare system worked with paper transfers. There were no caps at all. You either paid full fare, or you showed a valid transfer. If you didn't have the transfer, then you paid again and again on any given day. The fare caps only came into use when the system was capable of tracking them, for example a unique preloaded or prepaid card.

Now I have limited experience with American public transit, so perhaps there were some "capped fare" systems in the 1980s or before, but I never saw one that worked that way.

▲em-bee 17 hours ago | parent [-]

i was talking about how to potentially implement a capped system on paper, not about an actual implementation. if two strips would give you free rides for the rest of the day you probably would not throw them away.

i know the but ticket system from los angeles 25 years ago. you could use each strip only once because you had to hand them in. i think you got a second strip on the next bus so you could potentially make an unlimited chain. if people would throw them away then only because they got one they didn't use. you were also not allowed to use the strip for a return trip on the same route.

▲cuu508 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

*fares

▲CalRobert a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Very true. This is why they don’t appreciate roads or parking.

▲SR2Z 9 hours ago | parent [-]

It's definitely why roads and parking are congested! People don't value access to roads properly, that's a big part of why driving became the default mode of transit.

The main reason why we should charge money for transit is because it makes it easier to kick off people who ruin it for everyone else. It's not important that transit covers its costs, it's important because requiring payment filters out people who don't value it.

It fucking sucks to be on a train with a homeless guy shouting threats into the air, or with a bunch of teenagers blasting music and intimidating other passengers. Once on the way back from work once, there was a guy watching porn at full volume in a car with children at the other end. Sure, you can say "call the police!" but it's much harder to place cops everywhere (purely expensive) than it is to just send out some ticket inspectors (who generally justify their own salaries).

▲jimmaswell a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This isn't a big problem for roads, sidewalks, or the library.

▲forshaper 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In our library, I saw a homeless person pleasuring himself.

▲kccqzy a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Roads aren’t really free: you need a car or at least a bike.

Sidewalks are free, but they are usually unpleasant or inaccessible. In places where that isn’t true, they absolutely get trashed by litter; some even spit on the sidewalk.

Libraries are seemingly free, but getting a library card often requires you to provide several forms of proof of address, including evidence of paying rent or property taxes. So they aren’t truly free.

▲eesmith a day ago | parent | next [-]

Libraries are free. (Well, at least most public libraries. There are private libraries for personal use, institutional libraries for internal use, subscription libraries which require membership fees, and others.)

I've visited libraries in a half dozen countries, where I'm not even a taxpayer. I just walked in.

Some services at the library might not be free, including book checkout or making photocopies.

But if you want to make that distinction, then walking around your neighborhood isn't free because in most place you need to wear clothes, and clothes aren't free.

FWIW, I've walked a lot of forest roads without a car or bike. And the biggest littering problem on our sidewalks, by weight, are the escooter riders who simply leave their machines parked in the middle of the sidewalk.

The problem isn't that the sidewalks are free to use, the problem is one of regulation and enforcement.

That's why libraries are both free and well-loved - they librarians regulate the free space.

▲mitxela a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

spitting on the sidewalk causes literally no damage. Even peeing on it is minimal.

▲kube-system a day ago | parent | next [-]

https://www.etipressurewashing.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/0...

▲mitxela 16 hours ago | parent [-]

That's chewing gum, not saliva

▲kube-system 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, and common, particularly at chewing gum’s height of popularity.

▲codedokode 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It looks disgusting so I wish there was a hefty punishment and AI cameras.

▲AckSyn a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲xbmcuser a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲tempestn a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's unfortunate, but one problem with free public transport absent other changes is that then it becomes de facto free shelter, which degrades the service for people using it as transport.

▲dpc050505 a day ago | parent | next [-]

That wouldn't be an issue if we also provided shelter to the most distressed people in our society. As if we don't have the technology to build housing on the cheap. Our lack of communal will to help fellow people is a real shame.

▲jdietrich a day ago | parent | next [-]

Homelessness only partially overlaps with what British authorities euphemistically refer to as "street lifestyles". The people you see blacked out in the gutter or ranting wildly on a subway car are disproportionately likely to be homeless, but their behaviour is not the result of homelessness - many of them do in fact have a stable home and most of the rest would continue to behave in an antisocial manner even if they were adequately housed.

The problem of persistent disorderly conduct by a small minority of highly disturbed people is either an unfathomably complex psychiatric issue, or a fairly straightforward carceral issue.

▲mitxela a day ago | parent | next [-]

Should it be illegal to pass out in a gutter? If so, why specifically?

▲tempestn a day ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, although the punishment shouldn't be the same as for crimes like eg. theft.

As for why, two main categories of reasons. First, for the good of the person themselves. By making it illegal, the state then has the authority to compel some sort of action. For a first 'offence' this could simply be sleeping it off in the 'drunk tank' (or in a hospital bed if necessary). For repeat offences, an escalating scale of compulsory treatment. Basically if a person is regularly passing out in gutters, it's likely only a matter of time before they kill themselves, so being nudged, then coerced, then ultimately compelled into treatment would likely benefit them. Of course, this relies on avenues for treatment rather than simple punishment being available.

The other reason is for the rest of society. People do not want to walk down streets where people are passed out in gutters. They will either feel compelled to try to help - which can be, or at least feel, risky, given that intoxicated and/or mentally ill people can be unpredictable - or they may feel badly for not doing anything. Regardless, if it's a regular thing, it will encourage people to avoid the area where they're likely to encounter such things. That will impact local businesses, residences, etc., leading to an overall decline of environment and services for everyone.

▲mitxela 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Should everything that isn't good for you be illegal?

Should everything that causes people to feel bad be illegal? Many people are scared by guns.

▲harvey9 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Isn't open carrying of guns illegal in lots of places already?

▲rapidaneurism a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I think the argument is that it should be illegal to pass out lying across 4 subway/metro/tube seats.

And that is because it is not polite to take up more than the minimum space needed. (Like using seats for your bag, or putting your feet on the seat across from you.)

▲mitxela 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Should everything that is impolite be illegal?

▲codedokode 13 hours ago | parent [-]

You can be impolite at your home as much as you want but in public spaces we need to enforce politeness with harsh punishments.

▲pksebben a day ago | parent | prev [-]

you can't possibly know that, in the world we live in. Not conclusively - the amount of other factors at play and the ubiquity of those factors - crushing social stratification, pay-to-live capitalism, the overwhelming pressure on people to produce or die (meaning that learning to produce is on them to figure out, and quick, or else.) If you had an example of a society where these things were not at issue, you could more easily make a statement like "their conduct is an unfathomably complex psychiatric issue or otherwise they just need to be punished enough".

It's quite possible that these people would have turned out fine if they grew up provided a path to integrating into society that was less burdensome. It's possible you're right, too, but without controlling for confounding factors there's no way to know.

▲yongjik a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That wouldn't be an issue if we also provided shelter to the most distressed people in our society.

It's not an either-or. We can build more shelter to help homeless people, and at the same time we can dissuade them from using public transportation as de facto shelter.

After all, everybody's perfectly happy to keep homeless people out of their front yard or the local Starbucks. Nobody says "But we need to tolerate bums smoking weed in the middle of our coffee shop, unless we build enough shelter for all of them. ALL OF THEM."

▲JuniperMesos 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We don't actually have the technology to build housing on the cheap for the most marginalized people in society, who would trash that housing without intensive and expensive and very often coercive support from some kind of social worker. One of the biggest reasons many homeless people avoid the homeless shelters that do exist for the most distressed people in our society, is because the other most distressed people in our society living in the same shelter are prone to stealing from them or physically harming them. And another reason is that they want to irresponsibly use drugs in a way that makes them a potential threat to others and so is banned by the shelter.

▲saimiam a day ago | parent | prev [-]

to offer free public transport to people, we now have to solve housing at a societal level. To solve housing, we have to fix zoning laws. to fix zoning laws, we have to fix NIMBY-ism which needs partisanship to be solved. To fix partisanship...

▲AnthonyMouse a day ago | parent | next [-]

> to offer free public transport to people, we now have to solve housing at a societal level. To solve housing, we have to fix zoning laws. to fix zoning laws, we have to fix NIMBY-ism which needs partisanship to be solved. To fix partisanship...

Aren't half of these wrong?

NIMBY-ism isn't particularly partisan. Find a suburb and it's probably full of NIMBY zoning rules regardless of which party has the majority there. This is one of the things which isn't red vs. blue, it's "got mine" vs. the people who don't get a vote because they can't afford to live there because they don't get a vote.

You also don't have to "solve housing the societal level" to keep the homeless from using the subway as a bedroom. That's the better way to do that, but you can also do things like build homeless shelters that resemble (and therefore have the density of) college dorms in places where the "neighbors" are auto salvage yards, warehouses, prisons, abandoned buildings or the like and are correspondingly less likely to object to putting them there. And then anyone you catch being disruptive on the subway gets a free one-way ticket to the shelter.

▲saimiam a day ago | parent [-]

They are wrong but also unrelated to the issue of free public transport and hence include trade offs which don’t directly affect public transport.

Effectively, to offer free public transport, you have to reduce the power of lobbyists and dark money in politics.

To promote solar power, you have reduce the power of lobbyists and dark money.

To promote anti-vaccine ideology, you have to reduce the power of lobbyists and dark money.

To promote a strictly equal society where every person is judged by their abilities and not ethnic history and skin color, you have to reduce the power of lobbyists and dark money.

There are vested interests in every debate and saying we should aim for wholesale societal change for every low hanging result is a recipe for inaction (or at least, very delayed action)

▲AnthonyMouse 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> Effectively, to offer free public transport, you have to reduce the power of lobbyists and dark money in politics.

Do you actually though? Or do you just have to do it in a way that they won't stop you?

There are at least three ways to do that. You can do it in a way that it actually doesn't cause trouble for them, you can do it in a way where they can't stop you (e.g. at a different level of government where they have less influence), or you can do it in a way where they can't see what you're trying to do until after it's already done.

"Reduce the influence of lobbyists and money" doesn't even mean anything. If you want something to happen or not happen, you're lobbying. If you spend time or resources trying to achieve your goals, that's money. What people mean is they want to reduce the influence of people they don't like. It's fully generic, you might as well say that in order to win you have to defeat your opponents.

▲makeitdouble a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Shelter should be, but doesn't need to be housing. When people fear that public transportation becomes shelter they're not arguing houses will be built in train stations.

Having other places with a roof, some security and some public amenities should go a long way to avoid other services getting bogged down by homelessness.

▲em-bee 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

people don't want to live in shelters. they don't provide enough safety or privacy. being out on the street feels safer. any housing must at least provide a private room and bathroom. and ideally not have all those people concentrated in one place.

an important factor in improving your life is integration in society. but that only works if you live among people already integrated, not if everyone around you is also not integrated.

the same reason why it's hard for people to escape poverty uf everyone around them is poor too.

▲mitxela a day ago | parent | prev [-]

homeless people are already trying to build that but the so-called "protectors of law and order" keep showing up with bulldozers for some reason, as if they actually want people to be sleeping on public transportation instead of in their own private tents. This is probably because they get paid proportionally to how many people they catch sleeping on public transportation.

▲JuniperMesos 20 hours ago | parent [-]

People sleeping in their own private tents on public land in urban areas is as much of a problem as people sleeping on public transit is. I want protectors of law and order to catch and arrest people sleeping in tents in public parks just as much as I want them to do so for people using public transportation as shelter. If there isn't enough law enforcement resources to do both and it's necessary to prioritize, then I would reluctantly say to prioritize public transit, simply because public transit is more enclosed and so it's harder to quickly get away from people who are a threat on it. But ideally we'd do both.

▲mitxela 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Where do you want them to sleep and will you pay for it?

▲alsetmusic a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why shouldn't we have exactly the ambitions you're using as an argument against change? I support all of those proposals. The richest nation in history could do all of that easily if there was the will to do so.

If giving away free public services could be grifted to increase the bottom line of the ultra wealthy, we'd have a utopian society.

▲garciasn a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I absolutely despise the world we live in where the default answer to everything is effectively “no.”

I wish we could get to a point where we default to “yes” and find solutions rather than making it easier to say “no.”

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent [-]

It's worse than that even. It is 'things are bad, therefore we can't begin to improve'. Weirdly enough that never goes in the other direction. The day that people realize that people without a lot of money are also people things will start to improve. And this is rather more than less likely to happen because I suspect there will be a lot more people without a lot of money soon compared to today.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Another commenter already made the same observation. See reply there.

▲linsomniac a day ago | parent | prev [-]

>it becomes de facto free shelter

So? Let it.

If people need shelter, it's a shame we are building a ballroom instead of shelter.

▲ a day ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
▲bongoman42 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem with free public transport is that it turns into a de facto homeless shelter. And then it isn't safe to use anymore. You let people evade fares and then those people go onto stab people like Zarutska.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent | next [-]

That's a different problem, and it requires a solution by itself.

> You let people evade fares and then those people go onto stab people like Zarutska.

That has nothing to do with it. The guy that committed that murder wasn't going to be deterred by a ticket fee. But it is interesting that you should right away jump from the one to the other, effectively using the poor dead girl for your agenda. Crime and homelessness are complex problems some parts of which are easy to solve and some of which are much harder.

You can't simply jump from 'someone got murdered on public transport' to 'public transport can't be free'.

▲bretthoerner a day ago | parent | next [-]

https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2026/news20260908

▲alsetmusic a day ago | parent | next [-]

I ride BART. I'm two blocks from a busy transfer station. It's great for going to a show and getting home without driving (drunk).

Arguing that modern fare gates lowered crime is a pretty terrible response to the comment to which you responded. It shows a real lack of articulation ("crime bad, crime down here, therefore I don't need to refute what you said").

The original poster said:

> The guy that committed that murder wasn't going to be deterred by a ticket fee.

I don't see how lower crime on BART due to fewer people hopping the turnstiles refutes that at all. (Huh, I just learned turnstiles is spelled with an I and not a Y. At least your comment led to me learning something.) It just seems defeatist, which is what the people looting this country want.

▲bretthoerner a day ago | parent [-]

> "crime bad, crime down here, therefore I don't need to refute what you said"

You're literally making up entire sentences, are you OK?

> The original poster said:

>> The guy that committed that murder wasn't going to be deterred by a ticket fee.

> I don't see how lower crime on BART...

Maybe you didn't read the link, but it's a 67% reduction in crimes against _riders_. Not property, not soliciting, but crimes against other humans.

The murderer in question was unemployed, homeless and aimlessly riding public transit. We (as a society) should have done a lot more for him, but (see stats above) it seems clear to me that making it easier to be in a confined space with the rest of society wasn't solving his problems and certainly didn't help her.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent | prev [-]

You can cut crime all the way down to zero by shutting down all transport. You could decrease it to a very low minimum by setting a $100 / trip fare. But then it wouldn't be public transport anymore.

▲JuniperMesos 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

He might've been deterred from committing the murder if he wasn't on the train at all but was instead in jail because he got immediately arrested by the cops for fare-jumping. Also murder isn't the only crime I don't want to happen on transit, that is most likely to be committed by someone who is already breaking the law against fare-jumping to be there at all.

▲em-bee 18 hours ago | parent [-]

so we should put fare-jumpers in jail because they could be murderers?

that's a strange argument.

▲ninjagoo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The problem with free public transport is that it turns into a de facto homeless shelter.

Perhaps there's something broken about a society that has a significant homelessness issue. The free public transport isn't the problem, it's likely that society has a surplus of citizens that prevent economic progress and/or the deployment of solutions known to be effective against homelessness.

▲overfeed a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> The problem with free public transport is that it turns into a de facto homeless shelter.

I don't think $2.50 is what's preventing this from happening today.

▲bigDinosaur a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's nice to have an opinion but free public transport causes many issues and isn't great policy, it actually means transport agencies have less money to invest and take out debt on as system use increases which is a very bad position financially. The same issues actually apply to roads as well and are a reason things like congestion taxes are a good idea.

▲bigfatkitten a day ago | parent | next [-]

Fares typically make a negligible contribution to the overall costs of operating the system.

Public transport in the state of Queensland, Australia charges a flat fare of 50 cents. They only reason they charge anything at all is because they want the trip data for route planning purposes.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, explain why it works in 100+ cities all over the world?

Congestion taxes are completely different from ticket fees.

▲failbuffer a day ago | parent [-]

Could you give some example cities? I've never encountered a free metro.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

▲porkshoe a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Free public transport solves many issues and is a great policy.

The notion that transit agencies need to be funded via fares is nonsense to begin with, but it looks even wackier when one looks at how roads are funded.

▲triceratops a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it makes no sense to dis-incentivize the use of public transport to begin with

MTA serves NYC. People who can't even afford the subway are definitely not driving over there.

▲olelele 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Free public transportation is a huge productivity boost for society.

▲codedokode 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Great let's pay everyone's fare from your income then.

▲slyall a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Free public transport takes away money that can be used to improve service for everyone. Someone on minimum wage would prefer a bus they can actually use to get to work rather than having to buy/maintain a car because the free bus only comes once an hour.

Have targeted low fares for the poor etc.

▲jacquesm a day ago | parent | next [-]

Of course it doesn't. The cost of public transport is a cost to society. It will be paid regardless of ticket fees. Hence the word 'public' in 'public transport'. The difference is that by making the users of public transport pay you give people a good reason not to use it when there are alternatives available. But those alternatives have a hard time competing with free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

It exists, and it works. And the best bit: all the money spent on the whole administration around tickets, making tickets, enforcing laws, gates and so on can be spent on improving the system.

▲kube-system a day ago | parent | next [-]

> It will be paid regardless of ticket fees.

This is unfortunately not the way many systems in the US are funded. Many have to balance their fares with the service provided because they are reliant on external political factors for their public funding.

▲saimiam a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> all the money spent

you mean all the money saved? The unspent money are only a factor in the year following the year when the non-spend started. After that, no one will remember that they used to spend to some big figure on all the things you listed and assume that the operating budget of the transport agency has always been the lower figure.

▲djsjajah a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Go have a look what percentage of the operating costs are covered by fares in your city. I wouldn't be surprised if the costs relating to fare enforcement were more than the revenue from fares.

▲bigDinosaur a day ago | parent [-]

You aren't taking into account that transport agencies can raise a lot of funding based on yearly revenue so multiplying fares out in terms of the debt that can be serviced yearly can easily reach billions which can be used for capital investment.

▲jasomill a day ago | parent | next [-]

So additional costs to taxpayers and/or users of the system to cover interest repayable to lenders? How does this justify anything?

▲dwattttt a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I can't tell what you're saying; are you saying that "yearly revenue from fares is big", even when someone says "fares aren't the major revenue source, and sometimes doesn't even exceed the cost to implement"?