Remix.run Logo
▲ dvt 10 hours ago

> What is today a moral imperative is not the same as what was moral 50/100 years ago

This is absolutely not true, and I would strongly suggest taking an ethics course. One of the most fascinating realities of the human condition is that it does seem that moral imperatives tend to be constant, the most obvious of which is the Golden Rule (which is at least 3000 years old), but there are many (the Ten Commandments or Hammurabi's Code are good jumping off points).

▲coderenegade 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Hogwash. We don't even have a consistent set of ethics on how to treat animals today, in the age of the Internet. We have people who refuse to eat meat because of how the animals are treated, and we have places where the locals make sport out of torturing animals to death, and indeed, our own recent history includes that as well (look up badgering).

Not to mention, the variation in treatment of homosexuals (including what constitutes homosexuality), people of different skin colors, handedness, how rape is treated in various cultures (often tied in with notions of property and ownership of all things), or even the various definitions of rape... The list goes on.

Maybe there's a core there in terms of how we treat a given in-group, but equally important is who belongs in that group and why, and that part seems to be tremendously flexible. Ditto for what constitutes acceptable treatment of outsiders.

▲ 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
▲zahlman 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That we vary doesn't mean that there is no consensus. There is consensus on many things, and the disagreements we encounter are a source of strife exactly because of the groups that do agree on each side.

▲TychoCelchuuu an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲asdff 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think its more accurate to say where you find consensus in morality, e.g. murder is wrong outside authorized violence (e.g. war or policing), you also find extensive selective pressure behind this behavior. It makes sense that all collective society cultures would outlaw murder; such a behavior is incompatible with collective living behavior whether you are in a cave or a modern skyscraper. Early societies have always been rejecting those alleles from their gene pool.

When you find shades of grey and great spectrum of opinions across time or space, its more that there isn't a strong selective pressure either way. How people are expected to dress is a good example of this. This has no real affect on society behavior or fecundity, so you see a spectrum of opinions that explain the differences between what you see in the middle east and a beach in brazil.

▲satvikpendem 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I did a philosophy minor, one class of which was the philosophy of ethics. There are many rules that definitely are not ethical today even if they were in the past so I don't think the point you're making really holds. Hammurabi (an eye for an eye) is probably one of the worst examples you could have cited.

▲dvt 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Can't say I agree with this, considering lex talionis[1] is still the primary directive of most legal systems when it comes to criminal law, as well as basically all military operations (jus in bello, jus ad bellum, etc.). The principle of proportionality ("an eye for an eye") also is relevant to self-defense, capital punishment, etc.

In fact, I would counter and say that Hammurabi's Code is a quintessential example.

[1] https://academic.oup.com/jla/article/18/1/19/8471491

▲mapontosevenths an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Lex talonis is an idea by humans, for humans. At it's core are dozens of untrue assumptions about the way the world, and the other actors in it work. All of those assumptions are about monkey social orders. Many of them are wrong.

For example it assumes the other party can fear, and has a sense of self preservation. Those things are often untrue of other humans, let alone machines.

More fundamentally it also assumes all sort of things about free will itself, implying that retaliation is "deserved" and other value judgments that only make sense if the other party has free will to begin with. Something which science tells us is debatable even about humanity.

No, game theory tells us the right answer and it's not "hold back when retaliating" or "teach them a lesson." Those are things only humans would do, and even then only the ones who share your neurology and upbringing.

Hammurabi's code may feel fundamental, but it's no more fundamental to the human condition than boys preferring blue to pink.

▲card_zero 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Morality is knowledge, and it evolves like other knowledge does.

▲TheOtherHobbes 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not saying "Go and blind someone because it will be fun."

It's still an implementation of justice, and relies on a bedrock conception of justice as moral goal.

We don't agree with the implementation, but we still share the goal in the abstract.

▲coderenegade 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The law isn't and never has been a moral benchmark. At best, a law reflects social consensus at the time of its enactment, but even that's not a given.

And proportionality matters. Community service and counseling, loss of time (imprisonment), and loss of a hand have all been used to punish theft. Which is correct? Which is the more moral, because it doesn't seem to me that they're the same?

▲Arch485 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I think there cannot be an objectively most correct punishment for a given crime. The closest we could maybe get is "undo the harm that you have caused", but some harm cannot be undone.

Hence morality and ethics, I guess.

▲oatmeal1 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Did the Golden Rule apply to women, gays, and slaves over the last 3000 years?

The definition of moral imperative is "an ethical principle, rule, or action that is strongly felt, urgent, and required because it is morally right." The Golden Rule is clearly not a strongly felt part of the human condition, or it would not be so ignored over ages and continents.

▲Y_Y 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You take a class. Do you think coveting is immoral? Retributive justice? Human sacrifice?

▲tcdent 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seriously. This idea that humanity has not spent millennia analyzing these concepts is pervasive in the modern world, and the only thing I can think to attribute it to is a lack of education. Not because I want to be insensitive, but because as soon as you start absorbing material and integrating the real timeline, you can't unsee it.

▲BatmansMom 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is hammurabi's code moral? I don't know if I think that someone who takes out a person's eye deserves to have their own eye taken out also

▲scj 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Hammurabi Building Law 230: If a house falls due to improper construction, and kills the son of the owner, the son of that builder shall be put to death.

Given my dad designed and built homes, I'm very much against this rule.

▲dvt 7 hours ago | parent [-]

We still have criminal negligence laws, so apart from the capital punishment (which, at least in the US, requires intent), it's actually pretty forward-thinking. Of course professionals being criminally negligent should be charged. Are you seriously saying that you don't think the crew of the Key Bridge collapse[1] incident ship shouldn't be held criminally responsible?

[1] https://www.npr.org/2026/05/13/nx-s1-5819609/federal-governm...

▲derektank 6 hours ago | parent [-]

>so apart from the capital punishment

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

▲card_zero 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I seem to remember that a lot of it is about how much to pay when you kill someone, and the relative prices of slaves and women. Or am I thinking of Ur-Nammu.

▲ 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
▲js8 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree, I believe I would disagree with most of the Hammurabi's code, and I also happen to disagree with the majority of the ten commandments. (I am an atheist leftist humanist, cosmopolitan liberal socialist.)

▲ctoth 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Shit, I'm so sorry to the surgeons who saved me from eye cancer!

▲rcxdude 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not the case that all aspects are constant. There's some common themes across cultures and times, but it's definitely not the case that the morality of ancient people was the same as today.