| ▲ | Aurornis 4 hours ago |
| First comparison result I found was the UN's Food and Agricultural Organization They say Finland has over 22 million hectares of forested land https://fra-data.fao.org/assessments/fra/latest/FIN/home/ove... So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013% I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event. The real story is a debate about whether they followed the right procedures. Google says they did. The chair of a Finnish Nature Conservation Association says maybe they didn't: > She is asking the LVV to halt the entire construction site so that authorities can determine whether Google tried to bring the forest down without first obtaining formal approval. So they want to halt construction to determine if any permitting approval wasn't done appropriately? This is getting so much press that I assumed they had actual evidence that this was illegal, not just someone's suspicion and request to investigate. |
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| ▲ | 233mhz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > So Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013% Hacker news strikes again with mathematical genius tier logic... If I kill your first born son that's only like 0.00000013% of the mass of living creatures, who cares right? |
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| ▲ | jimmyjazz14 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That seems like a bit of a false equivalency this was not some precious old growth forest, it was basically a managed logging area so more comparable to some farm land in the US, and this is me speaking as a certified tree hugger here. | |
| ▲ | alt227 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If only the majority of the human race shared your sentiment, we might not be in such a mess. |
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| ▲ | Ndymium 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This article is a bit old, LVV has already ordered Google to stop construction until the YVA processes are done. What is still unclear is if Google will face any repercussions for acting before the YVA was done, but it is looking unlikely. Edit: One source in English but even this is a while ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvj6jkx6g1r0o |
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| ▲ | alt227 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Forested land is rotated with trees to provide a sustainable resource without removing it. Google bulldozing a square mile of trees is not comparable to normal forestry operations, because they are not replacing it with trees. They are replacing it with a massive concrete building which will produce loads of heat and suck up loads of local power and water. This is why there is outrage, not because they are destroying the trees but what they are doing in the place of them. |
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| ▲ | jvidalv 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The first think I did when I saw the number is to google how much trees finland has. Estimated 33 trillion trees. I think they will do fine with 250k less trees. |
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| ▲ | mynameisash 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Estimated 33 trillion trees Where did you get this number? According to Yle[0], you're off by more than three orders of magnitude: "Earth is home to [over 3 trillion] trees", and "the number of trees in Finland at around 22 billion." [0] https://yle.fi/a/3-8282753 | |
| ▲ | alt227 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Just wow. If we treat all natural resources like this then we deserve to struggle and die as a species. | | | |
| ▲ | watwut 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That decision is not on arrogant foreign corporation. Finland has own process which can end up in "yes" or "no". It is ok for Finland to say yes, it is not OK for Google to say it on their behalf. | |
| ▲ | e584 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | gmerc 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | No. They broke the law. Thats the point. Go into a walmart, lift a chewing gum and make the point Walmart has a few billion more. | | |
| ▲ | falconertc 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | We don't know if they broke the law or not yet. | | |
| ▲ | taneliv 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yle (national news) reports in https://yle.fi/a/74-20251890, choice sentences paraphrased to English: > Considerable land and forest construction work continued illegally at Muhos and Kajaani data center sites for months before LVV (permit and supervision agency) intervened. > Work has been against YVA (environmental protection) laws. (I did not see a link to English version, so feel free to use your favourite translation tool if you don't speak Finnish and don't trust my translation.) The illegality here seems to be determined by LVV, whose mission is primarily to guide in following environmental protection laws. They also have the power to stop the works when they are illegal or suspected to be so, as they did on Oct 6 in Muhos. Both LVV and the police are investigating the case and we don't have their resolution yet, but we already do know that some laws have been broken. > After the construction work was stopped, country manager of Google Finland, Antti Järvinen offered an apology for their actions. Of course it is possible that the end result of the environmental protection process is that the actual construction work is permitted and can continue. In that case, the only law that was broken would be following the proper process. But it is also possible that the work is not, indeed, permitted, and the fines and other legal consequences are then presumably harsher. |
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| ▲ | embedding-shape 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > I'm so tired of every news outlet trying to turn everything datacenter related into a panic-worthy event. I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made? The problem isn't "Google reduced the forested land by 0.00000013%" but that Google "began bulldozing large swaths of forest before the required environmental review of the full plan was complete", and then on top of that, Google seems to have gone beyond just rushing through it, and also cleared forest "that should have been protected have already been leveled. Beyond the loss of so much forest, the outcome could be dire for wildlife preservation" Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about. |
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| ▲ | fullmoon 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not a ‘tirade’ to point out lies by manipulation.
Media must be held accountable. | | |
| ▲ | malfist 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What lies? Are you claiming google did not deforest 300 hectares of forest? | |
| ▲ | breezybottom 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Finland isn't an authoritarian shithole like the US yet. They still have a free press, and there's nothing you can do about it. |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I guess you being tired means you also just skip reading the actual article and start arguing about some point no one made? I covered this in my comment. You missed the fact that it's not even clear if they broke the law. It's someone's suspicion, and they're requesting that construction be halted while they investigate to see if any wrongdoing happened or not. > Maybe don't turn every comment section into some tirade against news outlets when the news they carry in this case isn't even relevant to what your tirade is about. The deforestation is the headline. It's fair game. The submission headline is "Google cleared 300 hectares of Finnish forest". It's fair to address that. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I covered this in my comment. Yeah, I finished and posted my comment before you had edited yours to add everything below what I quoted, my bad. > You missed the fact that it's not even clear if they broke the law. It's news reporting, not the conclusion of a court case, the entire thing is "undecided" right now with no conclusion. But the story itself is about how they (allegedly) illegally cleared forest, not about what percentage of Finland's forest Google has (allegedly) illegally cleared. The problematic part is the "illegal" stuff, obviously. Don't focus so much on the HN title, lets discuss the actual contents itself instead of navelgaze about if the title is 100% accurate or what not. |
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