| ▲ | TrackerFF 13 hours ago |
| The DA (District Attorney) is elected, so they love to cite their tough-on-crime statistics. There are few incentives for them to not "win". |
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| ▲ | shagie 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| They're still a lawyer. Getting disbarred often means the end of their professional career. So file a bar complaint. https://arcourts.gov/professional-conduct https://opinions.arcourts.gov/ark/cr/en/item/1868/index.do#!... Rule 3.8. Special Responsibilities of a Prosecutor.
The prosecutor in a criminal case shall:
(a) refrain from prosecuting a charge that the prosecutor knows is not supported by probable cause;
...
COMMENT
[1] A prosecutor has the responsibility of a minister of justice and not simply that of an advocate. This responsibility carries with it specific obligations to see that the defendant is accorded procedural justice and that guilt is decided upon the basis of sufficient evidence. Precisely how far the prosecutor is required to go in this direction is a matter of debate and varies in different jurisdictions. Many jurisdictions have adopted the ABA Standards of Criminal Justice Relating to the Prosecution Function, which in turn are the product of prolonged and careful deliberation by lawyers experienced in both criminal prosecution and defense. Applicable law may require other measures by the prosecutor and knowing disregard of those obligations or a systematic abuse of prosecutorial discretion could constitute a violation of Rule 8.4.
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| ▲ | weberer 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >The DA (District Attorney) is elected, so they love to cite their tough-on-crime statistics. Its the opposite nowadays. The current meta is to advertise yourself as light on crime. So you get to the point where Philadelphia has an open-air drug market filled with fentanyl, the DA was actually impeached for dereliction of duty by the Pennsylvania house of representatives, and Philadelphians STILL re-elected him with over 75% of the vote. |
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| ▲ | computerdork 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Think the Philly DA situation is a bit more unique and interesting. Yeah, agree, he was one of the first progressive DA's elected in recent times, and he is in many ways light on crime. But he just got re-elected by a 75% in 2025 for a third term. That's incredible and think there is a reason for this. Am no expert on him, but as we're all talking about here, the legal system is really messed up. Yeah, there are a lot of terrible processes and laws that get in the way of justice, and a lot of the things his office did made a lot of sense. Probably one of the biggest was the "Elimination of Cash Bail for Low-Level Offenses." The cash bail system for minor crimes really screws poor people, who can't make bail for things like shoplifting, and have to stay in jail until their pre-trial. (it's often something like $1000, which for middle-class people is not a big deal at all). But imagine a teen who had to stay out of school for a month or even two just because they stole something for $20 and his family can't put together $1k. The teen gets behind in class and stops trying, and this becomes the start of getting further and further behind in life. And a similar situation happens with poor working-class people for a minor crime, they can't pay bail, so they are in jail and can't work. They are often fired or just get into debt because they're not drawing a salary. I don't know about anything about open drug markets, but think overall what the Philly DA seemed sensible (and just looked briefly and it seems like the crime statistics turned out well in Philly, but that could be from a number of things). | | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're not entirely wrong but I think that description of the situation is rather heavily colored by partisanship. Being lenient about a very limited subset of crime that "the system" is particularly ineffective at dealing with (to the point that it is arguably racist/classist/etc) is viewed favorably by certain (primarily urban) demographics. When you have broad support for an elected official who is exercising a great deal of discretion to not enforce the law that should trigger fundamental changes to the system as opposed to impeachment. | |
| ▲ | Der_Einzige 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Good!!! That’s why I live hippie liberal voters! | |
| ▲ | npc99 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Good. DA should focus on a rational plan to tackle high-impact crimes, not drug offenses. | |
| ▲ | LorenPechtel 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're assuming people view all crime the same. I'll applaud ignoring the open air drug market. It's a symptom, not a cause. The drug *war* is the biggest crime problem in the country. | | |
| ▲ | lurk2 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It's a symptom, not a cause A symptom of what? | |
| ▲ | NewJazz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Seriously did nobody watch The Wire? Hamsterdam. | | |
| ▲ | howunfortunate an hour ago | parent [-] | | I get all my best political information from popular fiction! Bioshock -> Libertarians bad Handmaid's Tale -> Christians bad The Boys & Marvel -> Corporations and governments are all secret Nazis Everything else -> Nazis bad That's all you need, really |
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| ▲ | usefulcat 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Don't they also hate to lose though? This seems an unlikely case for a prosecutor to win. If it were a civil case, sure, the standard is much lower there, but for a criminal case the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt". I guess they could be gambling that she can't afford a good lawyer; many people can't. |
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| ▲ | TrackerFF 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Which is why there's a push to accept a plea deal. Innocent people can easily end up accepting a plea deal after a day in jail, and pushy investigators trying to get out a confession. | |
| ▲ | mandeepj 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I guess they could be gambling that she can't afford a good lawyer; many people can't. Then the government provides a lawyer; you can't be without counsel even if you can't afford them. https://www.annenbergclassroom.org/resource/right-assistance... https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/right_to_counsel | | |
| ▲ | EPWN3D 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Whether you qualify for a public defender varies by state. It might be that while yes, hiring a lawyer would destroy her financially, she has the assets to afford it. In which case, depending on your local laws, the court might be fine saying she has to get her own lawyer. | |
| ▲ | AngryData 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Often a lawyer that doesn't want the case because the pay is lower than private work, and also if the defendant loses their case they must pay both the lawyer and the court their fees and hours. | |
| ▲ | axus 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sometimes the public defenders actions are indistinguishable from collusion with the prosecution. The window to appeal can close before your sentence is over. | |
| ▲ | usefulcat 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm well aware of that. I was speculating that the prosecutor may think that they could prevail vs a court appointed lawyer. | |
| ▲ | LtWorf 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But the public defender has had 5 seconds to prepare for your case. | |
| ▲ | triceratops 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They said "good lawyer". | |
| ▲ | nobody9999 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >> I guess they could be gambling that she can't afford a good lawyer; many people can't. >Then the government provides a lawyer; you can't be without counsel even if you can't afford them. I'd note that many (most?) state jurisdictions (the Federal judiciary has the Federal Defender's Service[0]) require a defendant to be "indigent"[1] before a lawyer is appointed, rather than requiring the defendant to hire a lawyer. Also, in many jurisdictions, private lawyers are appointed by judges to take on the cases of "indigent" defendants. Often there's little in the way of vetting such lawyers, and the fees paid generally aren't very high -- resulting in subpar lawyers and representation. Even in places (like NYC[2]) with a more robust public defender system, these lawyers are generally handling dozens of cases at once and don't have the resources of the prosecutor's office (investigators, budgets for forensic testing/analysis, etc.), leaving the defendants' side at a considerable disadvantage. As such, it's not just saying "I can't afford a lawyer," and Perry Mason rushes to your rescue. [0] https://www.uscourts.gov/topics/defender-services [1] Different jurisdictions have different standards for determining if a defendant is "indigent." But many of those won't appoint a lawyer unless you're flat broke. Own a home? Take out a second mortgage. Have a job? You're not indigent. Etc, etc, etc. [2] https://www.thecityreporter.nyc/2024/04/08/how-public-defend... | | |
| ▲ | smelendez 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | And this is a complicated case. You need evidence from Cash App and likely other third parties like ISPs. You ideally would have an expert to testify about the limitations of the prosecution evidence. |
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| ▲ | fooqux 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, now that this story is coming to light, I'm guessing getting a decent lawyer will be pretty easy. |
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| ▲ | lesam 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Surely a widely read news story about prosecuting an obviously innocent person is bad for this particular DA? Or do the voters not care about that? |
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| ▲ | HPsquared 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Surely an embarrassing loss is worse than dropping a case. |
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| ▲ | advisedwang 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | The DA can file the charges and drop the case right before (or even during) trial. No loss on their books |
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| ▲ | chrisjj 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > they love to cite their tough-on-crime statistics. Where can we see their tough-on-innocence statistics? |
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| ▲ | paimapi 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | https://innocenceproject.org/all-cases/ You can get a rough idea of innocence by exoneration rates + years served. Above-link is just for that one project, which is one of the largest in this arena. It would also be wise to assume that all exonerations only reflect a small minority of actually innocent people especially when you start factoring in 'crimes' like possession charges or debt (https://www.aclu.org/publications/pound-flesh-criminalizatio...) | |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A corollary of the “innocent until proven guilty” standard is that there’s just no way to compute such statistics. It’s impossible by design to distinguish between a clearly innocent person and a very suspicious person whose guilt couldn’t quite be proven without looking into the details of their case. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "It’s impossible by design to distinguish between a clearly innocent person and a very suspicious person whose guilt couldn’t quite be proven" Oh, you mean another innocent person? (Emphais mine) | | |
| ▲ | ImJamal 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | They are innocent under the law, not necessarily innocent. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's no functional difference in this context - the legal system determines legal issues. | | |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | There’s a functional difference if you’re trying to compute “tough-on-innocence statistics”, because it means that the target for the only possible metric is much higher than zero. A healthy criminal justice system should routinely rule people innocent; if nearly everyone who’s prosecuted is found guilty, that doesn’t mean prosecutors are being really picky about filing charges, it means the system doesn’t treat innocence as an acceptable outcome. | | |
| ▲ | giantg2 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | You'd be better off assessing that via analysis of laws and policies. That would show what could be abused and to what degree, even if it's abused by the people in power now. That's really the whole point of the analysis - to create laws and policies with better protections, so we should measure what we're looking to change. |
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| ▲ | exe34 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've never understood that. There's a claim you are guilty of robbery. You get charged and go to court. You plead not guilty. The da insists and you go to trial. During trial, you manage to provide cctv showing that you were 1000 miles away. The jury says "not guilty". Is there any reasonable way to say "we don't know, he might be guilty, we just didn't reach 'beyond reasonable doubt '"? | | |
| ▲ | baseballdork 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A jury I was on came to that exact conclusion. Some crimes require state of mind to be proven. In my case, a guy was at a bar and got kicked out. He went to his car and grabbed a gun and fired two shots. Ultimately the decision hanged on "did he fear for his life" when two bouncers rushed him in the parking lot. He was probably guilty of the two counts of aggravated assault, but the prosecution never showed that it wasn't self defense, which is what Arizona required. | | |
| ▲ | what 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If he was able to get to his car and retrieve his gun and shoot at them, it seems very unlikely that the “two bouncers rushed him in the parking lot”. He could have just driven away. Much more likely he was angry about being kicked out and went back with his gun and then the “two bouncers rushed him”. |
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| ▲ | jfengel 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not in the US. In Scotland, until this year, there was a "not proven" verdict, which was more or less what you just said. The effect was the same as "not guilty", but there was an idea that allowing the jury to express doubt allowed them to avoid erring on the side of guilt. But it also confused people so they finally got rid of it. | |
| ▲ | sgentle 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well the point of the trial is to make a binary decision, so it has to be guilty or not guilty to a certain standard of evidence. Think of it as "should you bring an umbrella to go outside today?" – the weather forecast has a probability, but your job is to turn that probability into a decision based on your risk tolerance. You can't bring a 30% umbrella for a 30% chance of rain. | |
| ▲ | giantg2 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The closest thing is probably a mistrial due to a hung jury. That allows a retrial. | |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | CCTV shows you were in the general area of the crime, but your shady friend says you were hanging out with him at the exact time the robbery happened, and the guy who says he saw you do the robbery is also kinda shady. I think it’d be reasonable for a juror to think you probably did it (because your friend is untrustworthy and has obvious incentives to lie) but didn’t do it beyond a reasonable doubt (because the witness just isn’t credible enough). | | |
| ▲ | exe34 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes that's the obvious case for the "we can't be sure". It's the classic example really. It's not what I asked. |
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| ▲ | watwut 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| This is "lock the innocent" tho. The DA is not tough om crime, the criminal went to his merry way. |
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