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▲ forkerenok a day ago

> Dutch police reportedly used flash-bang grenades in an effort to stun and apprehend Van der Stap as he was logged in to various online accounts.

Holy moly, this is the first time I hear about this tactic. I remember more benign distraction tactics used previously with Ross Ulbricht and the other guy in Thailand running another darknet marketplace.

▲wongarsu a day ago | parent [-]

And flash-bang grenades are not without health risks. They can cause permanent hearing damage, and earlier this month a teenager lost their hand to a stun granade in protests near Paris (conflicting accounts, either an unlucky direct hit or he picked it up to throw it back). I really don't see how a flash-bang grenade is justified against a person sitting in front of a computer, doing non-violent crimes. Non-violent options exist, as was successfully demonstrated in the cases you mention

Giving the police better non-lethal weapons is always easy to justify by citing all the cases where they can replace more lethal weapons or directly lead to better outcomes. But given a couple years time they always end up being used for more and more mundane situations where the harm clearly outweighs any gain. Same story with pepper spray, tear gas grenades, tasers, even anti-riot water cannons.

▲AdmiralAsshat a day ago | parent | next [-]

Let's not forget when police lobbed a flash grenade that landed in a baby's crib (WARNING: POSSIBLY DISTURBING PHOTOS):

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-georgia-deputy-acqui...

▲tokai 21 hours ago | parent [-]

That one gets my blood boiling every time.

▲scoofy 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I really don't see how a flash-bang grenade is justified against a person sitting in front of a computer, doing non-violent crimes.

People who pretend that nonviolent crimes are some kind of special thing always confuse and annoy me. Coups can be nonviolent, should we avoid flashbangs against a group trying to undermine a democracy? The seriousness of the crime is what should matter, not whether a threat of bodily harm was involved. Are you destroying someone’s life is what matters.

We are talking about an organization ruining people’s livelihoods. Dozens and dozens of lives wrecked. Millions stolen.

Yes, less-lethal force is very obviously justified.

▲raverbashing a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> a teenager lost their hand to a stun granade in protests near Paris

Yes, because he was dumb enough to pick it up with his hand

▲wongarsu a day ago | parent | next [-]

There are not a lot of situations where you are legally allowed to throw explosives at someone, then say everything is fine because they would have been fine if they just hadn't picked them up

▲chaps a day ago | parent | next [-]

For the life of me I can't get their comment out of my head. It's just so ridiculous that I can't figure out what their point even is.

▲prepend a day ago | parent [-]

I think their point is that one should never pick up a flash bang grenade. Especially one that has been fired at you and is about to explode.

I think it’s a pretty good life lesson to follow. Both not to be someone in a position to fire them and to not be throwing them back.

Seems like one of many “don’t do stupid high risk things” rules like avoiding base jumping or Johannesburg at night.

▲rigrassm 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Remind me to not be anywhere near you in a crowd. It'd piss me off to no end if the last thing I saw and had to waste my last seconds of life thinking about was "They're just going to stare until it blows u....."

If you have something that looks like it explodes land next to you in a crowd, and you do nothing simply because you think you deserve it (not talking about freezing up or just ignorant to what it is), you're a morally bankrupt coward that also deserves a share of the blame for harm done to anyone around you.

▲chaps a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I think you, also, are misunderstanding why their comment is such a ridiculous thing to say.

▲hagbard_c 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is one though: when you're throwing it as part of an organisation which has the official monopoly on violence - the police - in the context of controlling others who are violating that monopoly. Police are allowed to use violent means to suppress riots and that includes the use of flashbangs, stun grenades, tear gas and other similarly dangerous items. The boy who picked up the flashbang/grenade (unclear which one it was) was part of a group of rioters and as such had put himself in a position where he could expect to be exposed to police violence. Had he not been rioting he'd still have his hand but alas, he was, he did pick it up and his hand is gone.

If you have children tell them not to participate in these riots - which seem to be either organised by or used by both Melenchon's communist party as well as several islamic groups to achieve their goals - and, if he ever gets embroiled in one, make his way out as quickly as he can. Tell them not to be like Lenin's useful idiots, henchmen for the revolution who are discarded as soon as the goal is achieved. To those who think this means they should just accept any and all governmental abuse and neglect, think again. There are many ways to act against such abuse and neglect without feeding the communist/islamofascist/${extremist} beasts.

▲cindyllm 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

▲tjwebbnorfolk a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

▲chaps a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, teenagers tend to be pretty stupid but... do you think if a grenade was thrown at you that you'd react rationally?

▲prepend a day ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, I think I would react pretty rationally- run away or duck and cover. Zero chance I pick it up. And I was a super stupid and irrational teen. (And am still rather stupid and irrational)

▲chaps a day ago | parent [-]

When I was 14 I used to think I could shoot a kamehameha if I tried hard enough. Even then I would have made fun of people thinking they'd know what to do when a fucking grenade was thrown at them.

▲hagbard_c 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Are you still 14? When I was 14 there were situations where tear gas grenades were thrown in the city where I went to school (Amsterdam) in the context of squatter riots. I did my best to avoid these, never felt the need to play edge lord and join the mob, don a keffiyeh and shout inane phrases. I did do plenty of 'stupid' things but picking up live grenades was just too damn stupid. The Darwin Award was still decades away but had I known the term I'd have applied it to those who do such things whether they're 14 or 41. If you really need to get rid of the thing you at most kick it away - also risky - but best just to move away from it until it detonates. I knew that at 14 and I still know it. Didn't you? Don't you?

▲customguy 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

and on top of that, this is what a rational reaction gets them

https://bsky.app/profile/thenewarab.bsky.social/post/3myb2ze...

▲williamdclt a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> because he was dumb enough to pick it up with his hand

Indeed. And what? People do dumb things, that's a given.

▲hagbard_c 24 minutes ago | parent [-]

And this: teach your children to be diligent in what dumb things they do. Picking up live grenades is not just dumb but out of the gene pool dumb.

Smokey Bear said don't play with matches, I hope Daddy Williamdclt will/did tell his children not to play with live grenades.

▲toss1 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

While it is generally not the brightest move, they might have been thinking it was a tear gas grenade, which are not uncommonly picked up and thrown back at the cops (using thick gloves or a rag). This is because tear gas canisters get hot instead of exploding. I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference in under a second and maybe the tear gas reaction was just slow-starting on that one.

▲creaturemachine a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Call of Duty lied to him.

▲mutant a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]