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▲ nradov a day ago

Something like Wikipedia is a wonderful idea in theory, but it's tough to defend when their policies allow factually incorrect content to remain just because it appears on a third-party source that the editors consider reliable. Most media sources contain a pretty high percentage of fake news and when this slop makes its way into Wikipedia that makes the problem even worse. Can we find a better solution?

▲bawolff a day ago | parent | next [-]

Philosiphers have been trying to work on how to define what is "True" since forever without much to show for it.

Wikipedia tries to kick the bucket by going with what "reliable" secondary sources say. Thus the goal is not to say the capital T Truth, but to essentially sumnarize academic knowledge.

To steal a saying - its the worst method except for every other known method.

If anyone has a better idea how to determine what is true and what isn't - i'd certainly be very interested.

▲clickety_clack a day ago | parent | next [-]

I think the Gell Mann effect applies on Wikipedia just as much as in the papers. I’ve often come across articles in an area where I’m an expert and they have issues. I used to try and have them changed, but many years ago I just got exhausted by fanatics who seem to have just gotten really attached to their (incorrect) prose.

▲okanat a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sorry but scientific method has been the default for "Truth" for many academic subjects. It is reliable and idempotent. If all of the human information and most of the knowledge workers are removed from the Earth tomorrow, many will arrive in the same conclusion in most of the natural sciences and maths. The language and representation will be different but prime numbers will still be prime numbers and the matter will still be made of one neutral and two "interactive" elements.

Social sciences like politics, history and economy are harder to replicate with the scientific method, however repeated observations, statiscial information as well as qualitative analysis with evidence-based research can still provide replicable analysis.

> If anyone has a better idea how to determine what is true and what isn't - i'd certainly be very interested

This kind of excuse is often cited to shut down any discussion, especially in history, politics and economics. I find it deeply anti-intellectual and dogmatic. As long as evidence and counter-evidence is followed, it should be possible to discuss alternative interpretations and solutions.

▲cvanelteren a day ago | parent | next [-]

While I agree with your sentiment, I must add to this that to say that something is unequivocally true that holds in all conditions everywhere is difficult to ascertain in general. So we have to deal with that two (or more) things can be true at the same time (sometimes). This may be less the case for things such as prime numbers but more the case when the underlying principle is void of simple cause and effect (in the linear sense).

▲jltsiren a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The scientific method can be used to falsify hypotheses. It cannot prove that something is true. Fields that use the scientific method typically rely on social consensus for determining the truth. Empirically speaking, the social consensus seems to converge to a reasonable approximation of the truth with a high probability, but the process can take decades.

▲bawolff a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This kind of excuse is often cited to shut down any discussion, especially in history, politics and economics. I find it deeply anti-intellectual and dogmatic. As long as evidence and counter-evidence is followed, it should be possible to discuss alternative interpretations and solutions.

How do you propose to discuss "alternative interpretations and solutions" if you believe that doing so is "anti-intellectual and dogmatic".

I'm honestly confused how you could respond this way to my comment. It sounds like you are criticizing yourself (?)

▲ a day ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲nradov a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I understand that "truth" and "facts" are squishy philosophical concepts at the edges, but I'm talking about something much more basic. There are Wikipedia pages which are flat out wrong (by any common definition of the term) and yet the editors won't allow any corrections because the primary sources are also wrong.

One thing that might help a bit would be to tag or color code specific statements with a confidence factor. So a statement sourced only from a single trash site like the NY Times or Fox News would be red, whereas another statement sourced from multiple independent scholarly journals would be green. Or something like that.

▲ a day ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
▲bawolff a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There are Wikipedia pages which are flat out wrong (by any common definition of the term) and yet the editors won't allow any corrections because the primary sources are also wrong.

Primary sources aren't really considered reliable on wikipedia (with some exceptions), so if such a situation is happening (and you have a source for whatever version you think is correct, since just trust me bro doesn't go far on wikipedia) and you can't resolve it on the talk page, probably time to escalate the situation.

▲creata a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> There are Wikipedia pages which are flat out wrong (by any common definition of the term) and yet the editors won't allow any corrections because the primary sources are also wrong.

Not saying that doesn't happen, but do you have an example of such a page?

▲solyin a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Jev.

▲pazimzadeh a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

yeah and for some reason primary literature can't be used, except when it can, but review articles are allowed. makes no sense.

▲Alpha3031 a day ago | parent [-]

Literature reviews summarise the state of knowledge in a given field, and given Wikipedia articles are about the knowledge on a subject rather than the contents of a specific paper, I don't see why it would be unusual to rely on them. Is there anything specific that you find doesn't make sense to you? It's fairly common in, e.g. medical research for individual studies to be not relied upon and meta-analyses are certainly generally considered stronger evidence on any topic.

▲michaelt a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> it's tough to defend when their policies allow factually incorrect content to remain just because it appears on a third-party source that the editors consider reliable.

I feel this is the kind of discussion that would really benefit from a number of concrete examples.

▲AuthAuth a day ago | parent | next [-]

An obvious one is events using Middleeasteye as a source.

▲mellosouls a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I feel like that is the kind of response that is an example that could be used for "sealioning" on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

▲bawolff a day ago | parent | next [-]

> Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity

You really believe that applies here?

Its hard to say its relentless when not a single piece of evidence has been given so far.

Its hard to say its tangential when it speaks to the original poster's thesis.

▲mellosouls a day ago | parent [-]

I don't know it applies; but given the many times Wikipedias problems (esp politically biased gatekeepers) have been pointed out, followed by innocent-sounding requests for examples, followed by long back and forth time and energy sapping arguments with dismissals and refutations rather than thanks and acknowledgement of the problems, my instinctive reaction is suspicion towards people implying this is their first time hearing Wikipedia is extremely flawed wrt source material and editorial power.

▲akamaka a day ago | parent [-]

This entire thread is filled with people saying Wikipedia is doomed due to whatever minor problem personally bothers them, in this case apparently coverage of recent events quoting news organizations.

Nobody is actually showing us why the problem they choose to highlight is significant enough to torpedo Wikipedia altogether (or even that is a more important problem than all the others mentioned).

Also, nobody here is starting a long argument to waste people’s time. They’re simply saying “your one paragraph proclamation is completely unconvincing”.

▲the_af a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> I feel like that is the kind of response that is an example that could be used for "sealioning" on Wikipedia.

Not at all. Mainly because this is asking for the first line of examples, not repeatedly bogging down the conversation with constant requests for additional evidence.

Also it matters because in this kind of vague remarks that Wikipedia is unreliable, or that articles are wrong, almost always the people claiming this fail to provide specific examples, instead relying on some general feeling of frustration and shared belief that it must be true. But if they provided a specific example of a factually incorrect article, maybe other people would disagree. Or if they provided an example of ideological bias, maybe it would turn out the complainer is in the minority in believing that was biased. And if it turned out that this were controversial topics that most encyclopedic articles struggle with in some form, maybe it isn't a problem with Wikipedia. So examples matter!

▲mellosouls 18 hours ago | parent [-]

See my other response for why engagement is usually pointless in cases like this.

▲the_af 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I find "sealioning" a deeply unsatisfying excuse for not providing a single example.