| ▲ | maltelandwehr 8 hours ago |
| Isn't all of this true for a human-used internet as well? |
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| ▲ | cure_42 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Of course. But when you see text in the descriptor of a satchel on a satchel seller's site, you contextualize it as marketing. If you saw the same text in a textbook on the history, design, and manufacturing of satchels, you would contextualize it very differently. When an LLM is the lens through which you view that text, you often don't have the context of where it came from, and the LLM is often really bad at filtering trustworthiness based on context when retrieving information to answer a query with. I wouldn't go to a random site with a sketchy URL to get the customer service number for my xyz. I'd go to their official domain. Thus successfully navigating the treacherous waters scammers attempt to muddy. |
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| ▲ | cortesoft 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is nothing stopping us from adding the ability to understand the context of information an LLM consumes, too, right? The same process humans use to assess data reliability could be taught to an LLM? | | |
| ▲ | cure_42 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe. With enough money and resources and time, maybe. But it would need to be very reliable to be at all useful, and that level of reliability is very hard to achieve with something so nuanced and complex. You have an entire lifetime of experience and the wisdom of countless generations to inform you of the context with which you should process new information. You were specifically trained for years to be able to do this somewhat effectively. Doing the same for an LLM may or may not be possible. They contain much of that experience in some form, but are not well equipped to make use of it iteratively. It is incredibly expensive to attempt even a simple and ineffective version of it with our current methods. If the LLM can achieve even 90% accuracy, it becomes more of a hindrance than a help. Do you make use of the function and trust it successfully understood the provenance of new information? If so, ten percent of the time you will be misled, which could be disastrous across a population. If you don't simply trust it, then do you painstakingly check the provenance of everything it tells you? Of course not, you already don't do that with current search engines and blogs and such. Yet falling somewhere in between would be so much worse than simply not having the LLM attempt to discern trustworthiness from providence in the first place. But all of that is opinion and I may be incorrect. Perhaps someone will create some ingenious way of imparting wisdom and discernment to LLMs next year and this will all be trivial. | |
| ▲ | Zarathustra30 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nothing stopping us except perverse incentives. Why would a company admit its model isn't using 100% reliable data? | | |
| ▲ | cortesoft 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If real people are using the model for real, they will discover for themselves that the data isn’t reliable, and then might switch to a different model. The incentive will be to maintain a subscriber base. | | |
| ▲ | BobaFloutist 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | We have laws against undisclosed and misleading advertising, because consumers can't make informed purchases otherwise. What makes you think LLMs will have a fundamentally different pattern than everything else? |
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| ▲ | jonasced 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree and finding "official domains" is an interesting problem in and of itself. I wonder if PageRank like weights of input data would help, or some web of trust-like idea to prune blatant spam websites. | |
| ▲ | tsunamifury 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yea if you ever want to test how gullible even latest SOTA models are ask it for financial advice on a specific IPO and watch it vaccume up sell side nonsense and spew it out back to you as absolute fact. | | |
| ▲ | kingstnap 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It has little to do with gullibility and more to do with the way they do things. In principle AI Agents are superhuman at codeforces but tons of these vibe coded apps have ridiculously stupid performance problems. The problem is a utilization of expertise thing, it can tell you with incredible detail about pros and cons and caveats to a problem if you ask about it. Truly superhumanly intelligent. Calibration when it comes to actual decision making takes an incredible reduction in capability after that. Maybe it has something to do with the sycophancy or something but its like someone with exactly zero opinions (and therefore, taste). My experience is that you can brainstorm with it on "Do A or B?" and it will produce a coinflip answer A, then if you continue and ask about a specific concern "what about this aspect of B?", it immediately 180s and flips back to B being way better than A. Acting on this expertise when decision making points arise naturally for itself is where everything really nosedives. It's just gonna do whatever. So when you are doing this "financial advice please" questioning, it is entirely hitting these weaknesses squarely in the face. |
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| ▲ | cole_h06 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | scruple 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How do you get the poison out of the water in the well? I understand the way this is supposed to work on the web, there are support channels to deal with this sort of thing. But if the deceit is baked into the model, what is your recourse? |
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| ▲ | alwa 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Same as always: Develop a healthy sense of skepticism, cultivate a stable and diverse network of sources whose credibility you understand, don’t trust what you read, and certainly don’t trust synthesis unless you know how it’s made? | | |
| ▲ | scruple 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course, and I'm really not trying to move the goal posts here, but I agree that that's what (most) humans are going to do. But we're rapidly moving in a direction of agent-to-agent flow and "they" seem to lack the degree of discernment the average human does. They certainly don't have the same incentive structure we do to detect fraud. They happily regurgitate and build off of lies because, to them, the lies are not lies, and they can't be. They're just a pile of geometrically close labels from the perspective of the model. | | |
| ▲ | agileAlligator 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > "they" seem to lack the degree of discernment the average human does I don't think the average human has a particularly great sense of discernment either | | | |
| ▲ | automatic6131 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Obviously, we don't move in a direction of agent-to-agent flow because it's fundamentally flawed and worse than the status quo | |
| ▲ | cortesoft 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Seems like the next push, then, will be to get agents and LLMs to start doing that discernment? | | |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So “caveat emptor”? I get that’s always part of reality but we shouldn’t exactly steer into that skid IMO. It just shifts the burden to the rest of us and does nothing to address the root cause | | |
| ▲ | tsimionescu 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is, and always has been, the only possibility. It's up to every individual to check for themselves what is true and what is not, and to decide who to trust for things that they can't check. The real lesson is this: trust in the source is the most important thing for 99.99% of what you read. You will sometimes read about facts that you can actually verify, but those are mostly useless in the grand scheme - except as a sanity check on the source. For everything else, you have to ultimately trust the source. Now sure, sometimes you can get lucky and detect certain internal inconsistencies that prove that something can't be true. And to some extent, reading the same information from multiple sources you don't normally trust too much can be a slight signal that it might be true. But these are generally in the minority. | | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | So you test every sip of water you drink? Inspect every road before you drive down it? Check every bathroom product for harmful additives? Again I am not ignoring reality. But for society to work and for us to live our daily lives with any semblance of sanity, we can't be expected to be fully informed on everything we see, touch, consume, etc. We have to be able to make reasonable assumptions about safety and accuracy or we can't function. And the time it takes to vet stuff is often a privilege (or you can brute force pay your way to safety). I do not rigorously audit everything I read on wikipedia. I assume a certain baseline of accuracy up to a point, with of course exceptions. Do you pull up 3-4 high quality sources for everything you read or claim? Are you that academic about it? | | |
| ▲ | rcxdude 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the point is that for those you are trusting the regulators. For stuff you read online you are either trusting the source of the information or not. You should choose what information sources you trust carefully. | | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That doesn’t really change the calculus for me. We can regulate whatever we want. | | |
| ▲ | scruple 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A lot of people are throwing their hands in the air and suggesting that this is all just some sort of unavoidable consequence of physics, rather than something that is being pushed on us without any ability to confront it. | |
| ▲ | tsimionescu 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Regulating information, while it's fairly common at some levels (e.g. school manuals, one of the largest sources of legal information control, and one often abused for nationalistic lies in every country's history), is a very dangerous thing for governments to get into. Do you think the Trump government would be more likely to correct the NYT or Alex Jones if they had the ability to regulate news stories? | | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There are many ways to tackle regulation that don’t involve giving the keys to fickle administrations. |
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| ▲ | tsimionescu 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My whole point is that you have to trust people, that this is the only thing you can rely on for almost every important thing you care about. For food, for example, I don't eat from sketchy restaurants, unless I get some personal recommendations from friends about it. That is, I only eat from places where I think I have some reason to trust that the food is sanitary. Also, I didn't say you need to access high quality sources for everything, I again kind of said the opposite: you choose who to trust for what, and that's that. There is nothing more, and has never been anything more, that you can do. Sometimes people and sources you trust will still lie to you, or be wrong, and you'll know wrong information - this is also unavoidable. Of course, the more important some information is to you, the more effort you should actually spend trying to verify with multiple trusted sources. Some weird fact about cats you saw in a TikTok? Fine to just believe it. Trying to figure out who to vote for, or if the elections were stolen? Probably worth checking a few more sources. Read some definition for a word on Wikipedia, or some old historical event? Probably fine. Reading about an even slightly controversial topic? Check the actual sources, don't trust the snapshot you happen to see*. Of course, the way LLMs work is antithetical to this, as information provided directly by the LLM is not coming from any human source you can decide if you should trust or not. So you shouldn't trust it for anything important, unless you can verify. But for information or disinformation on the web, nothing has changed, except maybe the quantities. *for a silly example: the exact definition of the word "electrocution" is a slightly controversial topic - whether electrocution refers to any (significant) injury caused by electricity, or only death. Pedants soemwaht regularly edit the article on Wikipedia to remove the "or serious injury" part of the definition, despite it carrying a link to the OED that includes this mention. | | |
| ▲ | scruple 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Once this provenance trail, that humans use to trace claims back to an accountable source, is dead and buried under automated sludge, "just pick people to trust" stops working as a viable strategy. How do you even tell who is actually talking? | | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Seriously we’ve got Reddit now straight up translating foreign language comments with AI and without stating they did it. That is a massive decision to make, and I feel like no one cares. |
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| ▲ | bemtevi 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The difference is context. With human cheating, the intent is usually a bit easier to spot. |
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| ▲ | woadwarrior01 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| IMO, it's similar to what's happening with code. People have been shipping sloppy code and fake news forever. It's just that the cost of doing these things has fallen off a cliff. |
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| ▲ | dgellow 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sure but the agents obfuscate the signals you might use to judge the authority/trustworthiness of search results. They get disinformation results, wrap it into a reasonably sounding report, present it to you as trustworthy. There are so many ways for bad actors to game the system |
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| ▲ | the_af 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Isn't all of this true for a human-used internet as well? Yes, but if you read this "semantic" info directly from a site, you can judge the site and its potential biases, and decide for yourself "this sells Louis Vuitton, of course they will praise their handbags". Or to pick a more extreme example that nobody would ignore, if you somehow land on an extremist website spewing racist crap, your alarms will surely trigger by anything they say. But through an LLM this gets whitewashed and presented as authoritative and "neutral", when it isn't. You might know not to trust the LLM either (if you're paying attention; we all have our unconscious biases) but I bet you most people will be caught off guard. |
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| ▲ | brador 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The primary purpose of Google is to stop that. You have 100% trust in Google results because of the effort they have put into cleaning the results you see. Billions have been spent on it. Try searching Bing sometime. First result for Firefox is a malware clone site (you’ll have to scroll past the malware ad to see it). |
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| ▲ | vesrah 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The frequently incorrect or misleading Gemini answer at the top of search results is busy eroding that trust. | |
| ▲ | Planktonne 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People will have varying levels of trust in Google, but 100% is clearly too much, given the quality of results. | | |
| ▲ | brador 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Google search results are amazing and you know it. It’s 100. (I am not including AI results in this). |
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| ▲ | tsimionescu 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is completely and utterly wrong. Google may put some effort into catching malware - but even that is limited to the more obvious cases. But for almost everything else, they put between 0 effort and negative effort into trustworthiness of the sources (e.g. they clearly favor big businesses for certain product searches regardless of quality). |
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