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| ▲ | jyunwai 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I had to use an iPad with the Magic Keyboard as a laptop replacement for a week, since my only laptop (MacBook) was in repair for that time. I really, really, really missed having an actual laptop. I lost the ability to: * Listen to music while watching a video (iPadOS does not allow multiple audio sources at once; playing a YouTube video while playing a song on Apple Music wasn't allowed) * Quickly edit photos (I had 400 GB+ photos to cull/cut down; Lightroom for iPad required me to transfer photos to internal storage before culling to upload to cloud storage first, and I didn't have enough room; and specialized software for culling on the iPad equivalent to FastRawViewer that may or may not have worked all had a subscription fee) * Easily search for files (Files search was far slower and unreliable, especially with files split between OneDrive, iCloud Drive, and Google Drive), and manage files in general * Edit videos with the features I needed (Premiere Pro lacked features on iPad and other video editor alternatives had no iPad equivalents), or simply easily edit videos due to friction in file management * Use video-recording software like OBS to record a presentation * Use all features of flashcard software named Anki; I could not export individual decks or use other features (desktop-only feature; the iOS and browser versions did not have this) * Easily manage and resize having multiple windows on the screen at once (a two-second window arrangement took 10+ seconds, with constant hold-and-dragging and precise dragging at specific changing corners required) * Quickly and easily extract text from images for translation elsewhere (which added difficulties for language learning) * Run certain internet browser extensions * Compile and edit source code for software And so on. I'll grant that many users won't need many of these features. But at the very least, the ability to find files and manage windows is essential, yet it's still so cumbersome with iPads versus laptops years after the first iPadOS release. I fundamentally think that computers should work for you, and you shouldn't need to change your habits and workflow due to OS limitations (losing the ability to simply listen to music while watching a video was the biggest one for me). Yet I ran into so many walls with the iPad. | | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is a lot different from the core concept whether or not the iPad is suitable for a large general purpose set of tasks. I recognize that there are things in your workflow that the iPad was not ideal for, but a lot of these points come down to user preference rather than an ability or inability to do something. I could complain about a Windows machine messing up my habits simply because Copy and Paste uses CTRL instead of CMD. Even if I have that complaint and it legitimately messes with my habits, that Windows machine still has that capability and it functions, so whether or not I like their implementation is a matter of personal preference and not an indictment of the fundamental capabilities of the OS. I could easily make a list just like yours of things that don't work well on a Windows/Mac/Linux system that work great on iPad. Illustrating sucks on those platforms compared to using Procreate on iPad. They aren't good for scanning QR codes, barcodes, using front and rear cameras (FaceTime). They are bad at being held with 1 hand or being used with cellular connectivity. Making a list like this doesn't mean that Mac/Windows/Linux systems aren't suitable for general purpose computing, it just means that each platform has its own strengths. There are also some potential issues with some of the line items you have here: - Multiple audio playback is actually possible, but the app developer has to implement background playback. Apple is providing the functionality, it's not really their fault that developers don't use it. (e.g., Flacbox allows this exact use case) - There are alternative apps you can use to search your iOS/iPadOS device (e.g., easySearch). Do we not complain about bad search on desktop OSes like Windows too? I was just on an HN thread recently where a commenter mentioned how Spotlight on macOS sucks. - Edit videos with the features you need: this has nothing to do with the underlying OS, this has a lot more to do with the software published to the OS. We could similarly criticize Windows for not having Final Cut Pro or Linux for not having Adobe Premiere but that doesn't mean those systems aren't capable of running that type of software. - There are definitely ways to record presentations on iPad. They aren't as flexible as OBS, but if your goal is to record a presentation, it can definitely be done. I would guess that most people doing that specific task are likely to do that via Teams, Zoom, or Google Meet rather than setting up OBS, even on desktop systems. - I'm not sure what you mean about the inability to quickly extract text from images, this is a built-in feature of the iPadOS that works identically to macOS. - The limitations of iPadOS and iOS browsers are well known, but it does have extension support and so this again becomes a question of software library rather than underlying capability. | | |
| ▲ | jyunwai an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | For text extraction: on my MacBook, I can take a screenshot of some text with a keyboard shortcut (Cmd+Shift+4, then drag the selector with the mouse), unobtrusively clip the targeted part of the screen, select all (Cmd+A), and copy to clipboard (Cmd+C). On my iPad, it theoretically works the same, but the workflow differs when I take the screenshot. The screen gets filled entirely by the new screenshot interface instead of keeping to a small window that keeps other windows in view (like on MacOS), and often, text selection just doesn’t work on the iPad until I crop the screenshot further to just the text (versus working reliably on MacOS). So, it’s fiddly and takes a lot of time. On the MacBook, I could even install free third-party software to skip a couple steps (Cmd+A, Cmd+C) and immediately save any text in the selection to my clipboard. And that is the core of the issue for me. For the actual person using the device to get something done, many of the tasks I detailed are not possible to complete on the iPad as it is today, due to limitations on what I can install. I would be happy if I could at least dual boot to another OS or run a virtual machine (even if touch becomes disabled) so I can install more software tools, as the hardware capability is there for the iPad. On Linux, at least I can run a Windows virtual machine to run Adobe Premiere Pro (or dual boot with Windows), but I cannot fully use the hardware of an iPad with the way its operating system is currently designed. | |
| ▲ | everdrive 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >They aren't good for scanning QR codes But QR codes shouldn't even exist. | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Illustrating sucks on those platforms [...] They aren't good for scanning QR codes [...] They are bad at being held with 1 hand or being used with cellular connectivity All of these are form-factor complaints. macOS, Linux and Windows all support every single feature you just listed, it's just that people don't buy hardware providing it. Conversely, the iPad has these hardware features, but is widely criticized for only supporting an OS that is markedly less-capable than macOS. iPadOS is a derelict wasteland lacking USB class-compliant hardware drivers, basic graphics APIs and any of the escape hatches that macOS offers to power users. I just can't see how anyone can make this argument in good-faith. It is consensus that iPads are less capable than Macs, and most people will blame the iPad software more than the hardware. iPads are artificially restrained by a weak, incapable OS that prevents the hardware from cannibalizing Mac sales. iPads might win on a convenience factor, but they will always lose when comparing capabilities. It could be argued that iPadOS has a grand total of zero redeeming features. |
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| ▲ | Grombobulous 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t think the examples I gave were particularly specialized. Enterprise is running what I assume
to be a web-based CRUD application and the trial attorneys were displaying PDFs and other documents on a projector. Besides code compilation I can’t really think of anything an iPad can’t do. Can you list out some examples? | | |
| ▲ | xp84 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sibling to you gave a dozen examples. But your first paragraph is exactly the point of what an iPad’s correct use is: Enterprise’s use case could be done by any portable device with a camera, and doesn’t need a keyboard. iPad is perfect for that. Ditto for drawing on or highlighting PDFs with only a single mirrored screen being visible to everyone. You couldn’t ask for a simpler task. It’s tasks that are more complex than this where iOS (including the hilariously-named iPadOS which we all know is just iOS) is a joke. I’ll give you some things that I would never bother to try on iOS. To be fair, an android tablet is just as bad: - There’s a folder full of files and I want to organize them by moving them in a few groups into different folders. A mouse and multiple selection in various varieties, and opening several finder windows makes this trivially easy. Doing this in iOS is painful. - I need to extract three files from a zip and modify one of them and then zip them back up. A few clicks on macOS. An afternoon project on iOS. - I have a movie file and I want to add a subtitle track to it. Or maybe change the container format to be compatible with my Apple devices. 10 seconds with the terminal and FFMpeg. I’m sure someone will sell me an iOS app with a weekly subscription cost, which might do it. I could go on all day. I got rid of my last iPad about 7 years ago and haven’t missed it. My M1 MacBook Air is more useful to me than the latest iPad Pro (even with its $300 keyboard accessory) would be, and I’d never trade it. | | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I did respond to that sibling and you can peruse my response there. Maybe it's a crazy response, I don't know, but I hope it makes sense. We could also go on all day about things that your Mac can't do like illustrating with Procreate, connecting to a cellular network, FaceTime with a rear camera, etc, but this whole debate centers around this idea that the iPad is just this useless thing that can't be used as a general purpose tool. That idea is not grounded in reality. It's grounded in user preferences, but if we go down that rabbit hole we can definitely nitpick various things that Windows/macOS/Linux can't do. Regarding your examples: I'm confused about what's difficult about these file management and zip/unzip tasks. It works exactly the same as macOS [1]. You can even use a mouse with an iPad. Sure, you lose multiple Finder windows. [2] This costs a small amount of time. "Afternoon project" is a wild exaggeration. [3] Unlike your Mac, Files centrally manages multiple cloud storage connections. For example, Filen shows up right in Files, but on a Mac you have to do some weird "mount to network share" stuff as a workaround. You can literally run ffmpeg in a shell on your iPad: https://shaunhevey.com/posts/how-to-use-ffmpeg-on-ios/ [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102532 [2] We can also argue that my desktop with 3 monitors is more capable at this task than a laptop computer at a coffee shop but I can't exactly put that in a small bag and take it with me, so the iPad is just making an expected trade-off. [3] We might even make the argument that file system manipulation has been shown to be a failure in general purpose operating system UX for the general public and that file folder organization is far too difficult for the average person. I know this idea sounds a little insane but if we really think about it I think there's some merit to the idea. How many relatives do you know who have misplaced files in a sea of folders or dump all their stuff on the desktop with hundreds of desktop icons everywhere because they don't know where else to put them? I have at least one elderly person in my life who is only able to find documents on their computer via their physical graphical position on the desktop. I submit the idea that the average person may prefer the paradigm where apps and services "contain" the data and present the data in a way that makes logical sense for that data (e.g., photo albums for photos, message feeds for messages, project structures for documents) and the data moves around between applications via the share button. | | |
| ▲ | xp84 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I appreciate your big picture thinking with files in (3). I have seen as well how most of the people I have “helped with computers” have no idea how to organize their files. But the iOS paradigm where the files just “live inside the apps” only works for the happy path. Create Procreate document. Edit document on this device. Using iCloud Drive by default and then you can also edit it on the other device. Everything fits in your storage (cloud or local) at once. It immediately collapses when you don’t have enough storage space for everything at once. Or potentially the bandwidth to transfer it to and from iCloud. As the person who’s called in to help when someone doesn’t want to have to add an expensive higher iCloud tier, or buy a new $1400 phone to get higher storage, it is painful that I can barely even help solve these problems myself on that platform. The Files app is occasionally useful and is better than the first decade, where iOS didn’t have one. But the Finder (or even Windows Explorer) absolutely embarrasses it. | | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've definitely seen the "why do I have to pay to store my files now?" friction play out in this situation. Some of my relatives are highly anti-cloud. I know they're also at risk to lose their data, as they don't back up anything. When I set up a backup the workflow isn't followed, the time machine drive gets unplugged, etc. My other set of relatives recognize the concept that they are paying for someone else to handle this data for them and not have to worry about it. They're on the 50GB iCloud plan, so it's not a huge deal. As far as paying a lot or not a lot, I think it's just a personal question of "is this data important or not?" It either is or isn't. The avenues for saving money if you really want to keep storing a lot of stuff are limited. I should know, I have my own home NAS, and I can tell you it definitely hasn't been a money-saving exercise. I definitely agree that Files is behind the rest and can be a whole lot better. |
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| ▲ | solyin 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Desktop Windows computers at a large corp are usually also really locked down by IT, and are incapable of being able to perform general purpose tasks. | | |
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| ▲ | Grombobulous 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The ability to downgrade a package on a desktop OS is not universal. You can’t do it if the application is a web application. You can’t do it if the vendor doesn’t provide the old version and you didn’t save a copy. You can’t do it if there’s a security issue that required the update in the first place. You can’t do it if you consume the app via the Microsoft store or Mac App Store. You can’t do it if the application automatically manages its version. Windows is probably the only OS that even gives you a realistic OS downgrade option that a non-technical user could utilize. On macOS you’re looking at a full disk wipe to downgrade. On Linux, well, let’s just say I don’t think the small law firm that won the trial I served on is going to be able to operate Linux in the first place. Fix the code yourself, again I don’t think a small law firm is going to do that. Even if they were going to it wouldn’t be worth their hourly rate to try. They depend on their software vendors to fix issues. In a corporate environment, a company like Enterprise can tightly test and control what versions of iPadOS and their own in-house apps run on their iPads. In that respect it’s just like a regular computer. | | |
| ▲ | nekusar 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yum history undo (id of bad update) Its not just possible, but actually easy. You only need to run a competent OS that doesn't make an enemy out of users, or better, the owner is an actual owner and not a sharecropper (like Windows, MacOS, Android, or iOS) | | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | So now our thesis has devolved into "Linux is the only usable OS." That's a perfectly sensible opinion to have, but it's not exactly related to the discussion at hand, and we can't objectively say that the operating system with a 1-3% global marketshare is the only one that is suitable for general purpose computing use. That just doesn't make logical sense. This would be like saying that the only real automobile out there is a 2018 manual transmission Buick Regal station wagon, and that everyone driving a Toyota RAV4 has it all wrong. | | |
| ▲ | nekusar 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Its not "devolved" like some passive thing. It doesnt take much to look at the anti-user, advert laden, AI jammed Windows 11. And well, forced Microsoft online accounts. This is well documented. Similar with MacOS. Sure, if you do a bunch of songs and dances, you can get what resembles root. But every version closes and makes being a owner harder. iOS? Are we even discussing how anti-owner this platform is? Thats right, this whole article is about unilateral changes by the real owner of all these devices. Android is better, but even so, actively prevents root by owners. The existing root are effectively attacks. And the upcoming 'wait 24h to install your own app store' is just more anti-owner. And it leaves Linux and BSD's. |
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| ▲ | xp84 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s not even that to me, it’s bigger than that. On a real computer, if you don’t like what application is showing on Monitor 2, you can just drag a different program onto Monitor 2. iOS in contrast, follows the modern way of designing devices: nothing is customizable besides mild “theming.” The entire interface (and every behavior) springs fully formed from the mind of an inexperienced “uX dEsIgNeR” and is a fixed, immutable object whose specifics are not available to be adjusted. | | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | But if we go down this rabbit hole of user preferences, then we also have to criticize MacOS or Windows for being less customizable than Linux. And we certainly can do that, it's just that what we are discussing in this thread is not related to that concept. The root comment of this thread is "An important lesson for anyone who believes it makes sense to use an iPad instead of a computer. (for any task)" which is just a ridiculous statement, especially the "for any task" part. Whether or not I can complete the tasks I need and want to do has very little to do about the level of customization of the OS. |
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| ▲ | MYEUHD 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Apple only lets you downgrade to iOS versions that are still signed. Typically previous updates remain signed for ~1 month. You can check which updates are still signed here: https://appledb.dev/ However, you can downgrade to any previous iOS version if a bootrom exploit is found for your device. For example you can use https://github.com/pwnerblu/surrealra1n to downgrade A12/A13 chip devices using this bootrom exploit: https://github.com/ahmadkamal09999-tech/usbliter8 | |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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