| ▲ | slibhb 8 hours ago |
| The population hysteria from the 60s was proven wrong a long time ago but it's still pretty influential. E.g. it's not uncommon for millenials to talk about not wanting children because of overpopulation. It takes a long, long time for new ideas to diffuse through society. Most people are not paying close attention to the cutting edge. |
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| ▲ | awongh 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Even if there's a lot of scientific evidence, statistical proof etc. it's sort of surprising to me that when chatting with people all over the world (in dense cities and also in non-dense areas) how often I hear the sentiment that "there are too many people" and get the sense that they do mean that there's too many people in the world (not just within the surrounding 5-10km which might actually be true). This might also be one of those things that aligns with people's experience of the world, and the de-population thing is inherently counterintuitive unless you are, by definition, outside the norm- that is, you would only ever notice this if you live where people already don't live. (rural Japan, etc.) |
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| ▲ | neutronicus 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I guess I don't understand what's supposedly been proven wrong? There seem to be real concerns about whether the environment on Earth can sustain the impact of human society in its current form, and the population is an obvious lever to scale that impact. I guess what's "surprising" is that birth rates are responding to the pressures I'm alluding to? Rather than just continuing runaway exponential expansion? | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think people are talking about two different things. The initial panic was that agriculture could not scale to population growth, and millions would starve. That part turned out to be quite seriously wrong, the reason people starve is that they have really crappy governments. The idea that a growing population has quite serious effects on the natural environment hasn't been proven wrong. Trying to get the entirety of the third world up to first world living conditions is putting a serious strain on natural systems. Having a lower population would probably help with that problem. The current panic around falling populations seems to have two drivers: economic systems that are built as essentially a ponzi scheme, like many retirement plans including social security, and a pretty racist idea that we need to have a lot more white babies to keep brown people from taking over. |
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| ▲ | boelboel 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think for most millenials it's an excuse not really the actual reason they don't want/get kids (although i think there's a few actual believers). |
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| ▲ | bombcar 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's amazing how many people don't realize that people make a decision, and then find reasons for it. |
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| ▲ | triceratops 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The population hysteria from the 60s was proven wrong a long time ago but it's still pretty influential I wonder if people in the 2080s will say that about the underpopulation hysteria from the 2020s. |
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| ▲ | Supermancho 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The next 50 years will cause all industrial countries to face an irregular demographic profile, weighted toward the elderly. The median age in China is almost 41, while the US is reaching 39. In the US, the elderly (65+) will be almost 1 in 4 of the population ~2050. In contrast, boomers were 37% of the US population at their height (elderly were ~9.5%). There is no underpopulation hysteria.
However, the math around demographics is settled. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | What's the problem? Robotics and AI will transform elder care as well as the workforce. There will be fewer taxpayers. That's not a problem. "Anything we can do, we can afford". | | |
| ▲ | MentalM 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Robotics and AI will transform elder care as well as the workforce. Or not. Incentives are confronting it. It is very likely that one day productive members of society just decide that it is not very advantageous for them to provide for more numerous old people, and that it is them, who holds the power and have ability to decide what to do. So f.ck democracy, f.ck elders, let them enjoy the world they have created. Sociopolitical environment probably will have way grater affect on an elder care than AI and Robotics. > "Anything we can do, we can afford". Exactly. And the elders can do nothing. I mean they can use their amount and vote, but it will only intensify the process | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It is very likely that one day productive members of society just decide that it is not very advantageous for them to provide for more numerous old people It is unlikely because productive people tend also to have some amount of foresight. Enough to know that they will also be old one day. > I mean they can use their amount and vote, but it will only intensify the process Process of what? | | |
| ▲ | MentalM an hour ago | parent [-] | | > productive people tend also to have some amount of foresight Guess what they will see with that foresight when there are several times more old people who take away most of their earned through sweat and blood resources? > Process of what? Social reorganization | | |
| ▲ | card_zero an hour ago | parent [-] | | What, what will they see? "That's going to be me one day", or "we need to reorganize this so that I die in poverty"? But take away sounds unfair, and if you're talking about fairness, then fair enough. I can't argue with fairness, until you reveal what the idea is in detail. Oh, but I'm not thinking this through: there are of course fewer young people, and if they started reproducing a lot then they'd get to neglect the elders now and be looked after when they're older. Perhaps that's the plan. I guess that explains "the world they have created" too: they didn't create enough young people, you mean. |
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| ▲ | card_zero 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > and that it is them, who holds the power You mean, young people hold the power? Or young people will decide that they hold the power? Well whoever holds the power, I hope they agree that we all have rights. > f.ck elders Specifically what form of f.cking? Do you just mean "don't subsidise their care through tax?" > let them enjoy the world they have created You mean the world with lots of elders? They created this how, by deliberately being born? > the elders can do nothing. I mean they can use their amount and vote, but it will only intensify the process Their "amount", their money? Or their population size, relevant to voting, I guess that's what you mean. Both sound quite influential unless you want to make them non-people for being old. Now admittedly old people are ugly and smelly and boringly slow, but that last shortcoming can be mitigated by exoskeletons and hard drugs, and then they're going to hunt you down and scrag you, that's my prediction. It's as good as any other prediction floating around in this subject area. |
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| ▲ | clark_dent 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Millenials talk about not wanting children because they don't want to subject a new generation to this absolute shitshow of a planet, or because they can't afford the time and resources to adequately raise them. I've not heard anyone talk about an overpopulation problem in 30 years. |
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| ▲ | joenot443 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm a millennial and I really really like this planet. It's my favorite one. My kids are going to like it here too someday, I hope. My peers who are skipping kids are mostly doing so because their other ambitions don't align with raising a family, which I totally get. It's a huge trade off, I hope it'll be worth it. | | |
| ▲ | VirusNewbie 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >doing so because their other ambitions don't align with raising a family, Are your peers more ambitious than mine or are their ambitions to travel for cheap and watch as much netflix as possible? (This is obviously not true of my coworkers/friends from work who can all afford kids and most choose to) | |
| ▲ | RunSet 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "They had such enormous fun that they called for another elephant to come." | |
| ▲ | metalman 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | gen x here, and my observation is that millenials tend to let there back brain say whatever the 'expected' response is,as having had it barked at them from birth makes it effortless, and then going back to bieng cagey,mildly subversive, and somewhat ferral in there actual lives.
point of order : there is NO trade off in getting what you want. |
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| ▲ | dofm 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As a general rule they won't talk about overpopulation being a problem because they know that the population will likely peak within their children's lifetimes. They do talk about whether the earth can sustain that population as a reason not to have children. They are correct to. Their children might be the generation who have to explain to their children what fish tasted like. | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | yes, this is the thing I'm not quite getting from the "malthus was proven wrong" argument. Yes, technology increased food production, but that doesn't mean there isn't a carrying capacity to the earth. We have overfished. Fisheries are in decline all over. I guess you could say "no problem, we'll have lab created or grown fish and it will be fine" ok, maybe. But it's not going to be the same and the oceans won't be the same. What I don't get from all of the demographic collapse hand-wringing: Somehow in the 1970s we got by with 1/2 as many people as we have now - why would a long, slow decline back down to that number be catastrophic? Why would stabilizing at a lower population be problematic? Sure, during that decline there's going to be issues, but once you hit a new stable population those would go away. | | |
| ▲ | thombat 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | One commonly perceived problem is the increase not just in the fraction of the population that is retired, but how long they will remain retired if provided with adequate care, or (more bluntly) how long it takes them to die compared to previous generations. Here in Germany the social system was established when most people died within two-three years of retirement age. Today they can expect to live for more than fifteen years, thanks in part to more expensive health care (cardiac arrest used to be effectively lethal, if not immediately then through subsequent arrests, now it's generally survivable with expensive care). The current retirees are entitled to this, having paid into the system, but current workers can look upon their own increasing contributions and the overall maths and feel uneasy that though paying more they may receive less. The retirement age is now slowly being raised, and given time the system may level, but in the meantime "issues" will indeed present. | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Raising the retirement age is one thing, but finding work for those retirees is another. Ageism is rampant (and especially in tech). Maybe that becomes less of an issue when more of the population is older, but I don't think we're there yet. |
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| ▲ | card_zero 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The issues might go away sooner than that, because I imagine - naively? - that a society full of old people would put lots of effort into reducing the problems of being old. Having declined, the population might increase again, and decline again, but with fewer issues the more practice we have. Stability sounds unlikely. | |
| ▲ | MentalM 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why would stabilizing at a lower population be problematic? 1. There are no incentives to stabilize at a lower population. It is not like population are decreasing because of overpopulation. 2. It is workers / welfare recipients ratio that will be the catastrophic problem. | |
| ▲ | alexk307 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Sure, during that decline there's going to be issues, but once you hit a new stable population those would go away. I think you're compressing a lot of hardship into "issues"... It's not about total number of people, it's about demographic distribution. If half of your population is at retirement age, who is going to take care of them? Who will be working to generate tax revenue to provide the social services that you expect? Also populations don't just stabilize, they feed back off of themselves. If half of your population isn't procreating, you get fewer and fewer babies which is a vicious cycle. There aren't many policy levers to pull during demographic free fall. | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Easy, raise the retirement age. The problems you are expecting from demographic free fall aren't going to happen for generations, and at any point during that time people could decide to start having more babies. | | |
| ▲ | UncleOxidant 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Easy, raise the retirement age. I'm not sure it's that easy. There are a lot of people who aren't able to work as they get older for medical reasons. And there's a lot of ageism that keeps older people out of the job market. Maybe that ageism lessens as the population ages, but we're not there yet. |
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| ▲ | bayarearefugee 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > > Somehow in the 1970s we got by with 1/2 as many people as we have now - why would a long, slow decline back down to that number be catastrophic? Because we've built an economic system based on the idea that you must, at all costs, grow. Stable success is insufficient and will be seen as failure. And then we spent many decades programming people to believe this is the only thing that can possible work. Nothing natural about this at all, it is just the result of the cult of capitalism. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Have we, though? Governments rely on economic growth to fund their plans. That means economic activity has to grow, which means ... something ultimately rather unclear about what people around at the time consider wealth to be. It doesn't mean "everybody into the spawning pools and get busy". |
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| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | slibhb 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Millenials talk about not wanting children because they don't want to subject a new generation to this absolute shitshow of a planet They often list overpopulation as a reason. But yes, it's not the only reason they give. As an antidote to this kind of mindless negativity, just consider whether any individual human is happy to have been born. It seems very clear to me that most people enjoy being alive and so having children is moral on utilitarian grounds. | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Bad argument. You could have had even more children, is the fact you didn't immoral? What kind of monster are you? | |
| ▲ | 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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