| It should be a tiered system, IMO. 1) Where possible, don't test in animals. 2) When testing in animals, first ensure that there is reasonable confidence the risk and severity of harm from the testing will be minimal. Only begin initial in vivo testing after this has first been achieved. 3) For test animals that are or aren't harmed, allow them to live happy, (relatively) normal, natural lives. Don't end their life early unnecessarily, with exceptions for humane euthanasia if the testing has unexpectedly caused significant, persistent suffering. Treat them as a pet owner would treat their beloved pet rat. Some may consider it extreme, but, in my view, in an ideal world, people would treat testing in animals almost like testing in humans. The researcher should first ask "would I feel comfortable testing this in a voluntary human test subject?" Non-human animals would still be the first line of testing, since harm/death in a rat/mouse/chimpanzee is less morally bad than in a human, but I think this should be the mindset. |
| |
| ▲ | munchbunny 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of what you said is already how it's done today, at least in the pharmaceutical industry. > Some may consider it extreme, but, in my view, in an ideal world, people would treat testing in animals almost like testing in humans. I don't consider it an extreme view, as lots of people share that view. But within the scope of pharmaceuticals, as opposed to cosmetics, I disagree with it because I think that's an impractical guideline to follow. Animal testing happens because there aren't good alternative ways to get safety data (on a per-treatment basis) without putting human lives at risk, and it's already a tiered system designed to balance scientific need against animal welfare. This is also why in standard medical trials proving safety comes before proving efficacy. > The researcher should first ask "would I feel comfortable testing this in a voluntary human test subject?" Non-human animals would still be the first line of testing, since harm/death in a rat/mouse/chimpanzee is less morally bad than in a human, but I think this should be the mindset. The problem is: how do you as a researcher become comfortable testing on a voluntary human test subject? You need safety data. How do you get the safety data? Right now, the main way is a tiered system that starts on a petri dish and eventually passes through mice, monkeys, etc. before humans. | |
| ▲ | suncemoje 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It should be a tiered system, IMO. It is a tiered system, at least if you look at big pharma. There are many stages in the pharmaceutical drug development process. Also human testing (clinical trials) have different stages/tiers to maximize learning and minimize risk at every stage. A lot of companies trying to innovate here. I’m exited what more AI can bring to this space. | |
| ▲ | DrBazza 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No matter how many checks, there's a human trial, and that may not go to plan either:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4811626.stm -- Two men who fell seriously ill following a clinical drugs trial remain in a critical condition but four others are showing signs of improvement. All six are still in intensive care in Northwick Park Hospital, north-west London, after falling ill on Monday. TeGenero, which manufactures the anti-inflammatory drug, says it has apologised to the men's families. | |
| ▲ | voidUpdate 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I do feel bad for medical mice, especially things like SCID Mice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severe_combined_immunodeficien..., which are basically only born to be infected with something, and then die. Even more so in a recent case of academic fraud I've seen involving cancer testing, where the data was obviously faked, but mice still died for the data. But yes, it's hard to test immune responses without hurting a living animal, since you'd have to somehow have a non-alive immune system to test on otherwise | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | How do you feel for wild mice, who typically have short lives of borderline starvation before they are eaten by a snake, bird, or other predator? |
| |
| ▲ | Palomides 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | this is already what they do, you have to justify usage of animals and meet standards for quality of life to do any research at a real institution also animal research is a huge pain in the ass, nobody is doing it unless they have to | | |
| ▲ | constantius 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's a naive understanding of academia. Meeting standards is nothing but a formality, a form to fill. The PhDs and lab staff doing the killing, if they have any qualms about the act itself or just the purpose of the killing, generally justify it away as being what they have to do to keep the job. The "humane" killing methods are learned on the job through trial and error, and such errors keep happening regularly to experienced staff. Prior to lockdowns, many/most lab animals just got killed: interesting quality of life standard. What's written in lab policies is not at all how it happens in reality. | | |
| ▲ | Palomides 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | that does not sound at all like my lab experience, nobody was doing ad hoc trial and error on basic animal management |
| |
| ▲ | customguy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Treat them as a pet owner would treat their beloved pet rat. They do that already? Then how come an estimated 192 million mice are killed each year? |
| |
| ▲ | Shitty-kitty an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Time to feed my beloved pet snake. | |
| ▲ | teiferer 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's already how it works. FWIW, just watching a few pigs in an existing herd without interacting with them in any active way requires an extensive ethical approval process. Nobody would go through even that if they could gather the same data from a computer model. | |
| ▲ | sporedro 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree. If it’s a question of just cost - (animals being cheaper to just test on quickly and faster) animal testing shouldn’t be allowed. | | |
| ▲ | dguest 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I feel like "just a question of cost" is a heavy lifter here though. Cost core to our resource allocation system, for better or worse, and if something costs a lot it usually means we can't do it as much. In this framing, cutting out animal testing would (often) mean medical research is slower. In this framing it's a question of where people are willing to put the dial on ethics vs results, and of course pumping the breaks in one place without universal buy-in just means the cruelty moves elsewhere. I don't think the above 1-dimensional framing is the whole story though. You could imagine more standardized data sharing, so that the data that cost the lives of a few thousand rats could be used by others. And of course you could require (as drug trials do) that the study be registered before any experiment happened, and that the results be published regardless of the outcome. Some of these changes could actually make the science better, in addition to more ethical. | | |
| ▲ | idbnstra 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | hopefully animal testing alternatives keep innovating enough that they, like some renewable energy sources today, become cheaper to make use of than their incumbents | | |
| |
| ▲ | suncemoje 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s not just a question of cost. Our biological mechanisms are so complex, there is no single system that can tell us whether a drug is 100% safe or not. That’s why drugs are eventually also “tested” in humans during clinical trials. How amazing would it be if we could throw any drug/compound into a computer, then also spit in it, and get a personalized efficacy score as a response…? | |
| ▲ | cyberax 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Animals are NOT cheaper. Pharma companies do everything to avoid animal testing. For most drugs the only reasonable test animals are mice and rats. And they LOVE to naturally get cancer and other diseases, so you need to use large groups to get even a semblance of statistical significance. Oh, and don't forget that it takes a lot of time to run the tests. And time IS money for pharma. | |
| ▲ | Pxtl 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Even within animal testing, the cost and convenience of animal testing could vary tremendously. Working in animal testing intrinsically means running a death-camp for mice. The mice aren't are barely even raw materials, they're basically stationery, more treated more like a mobile pH test-strip then a living creature. There are ways that animal testing could be made far more humane (like birth control to prevent the kind of overbreeding that demands mass culling), but those, themselves, would be costly. And in order to test cures, you must first inflict the animals with the disease. How many do you need? Are you sure? Because waiting to produce more later would also create costs. Cheaper just to breed a huge batch now and then cull the surplus. ... so how many extra do you want? |
|
|