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▲ Way to Play Super Mario 64: On Apple Vision Pro(pagetable.com)
135 points by frizlab 2 days ago | 51 comments
▲Keyframe 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Tangentially related, I managed to have super mario from Mario 64 help me out while developing a renderer by using wonderful libsm64 https://x.com/Keyframe/status/2111909018595676245 and I put more details here https://www.reddit.com/r/GraphicsProgramming/comments/1x7r2x...

Note well libsm64 was made before LLM era, it's wonderfully absurd but also highly useful (to me at least).

▲PetitPrince 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Diorama-style VR works very well to reduce or even eliminate kinetosis (motion sickness) for games. I've seen this in Moss and Moss 2 and it works very well.

Too bad many blockbuster games nowadays have a camera-over-the-shoulder approach rather and focus on aiming on stuff rather than fixed camera (understandable since so many of them are open world); this would have given a nice accessibility option for fan-made mods. That said, for character action game with melee combat (the likes of Devil May Cry, Elden Ring, etc), maybe a god-game view centered on the character with a limited field of view could work ?

▲polyterative 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not fully relevant to the comment, but I've noticed that most motion sickness issues derive from an FOV which is too low.Big companies set it lower for performance reasons I guess, but on PC I always loved to crank it. And it's not about sitting closer or about the distance in itself, it's about the ratio of the size of the screen to the vision field it occupies

▲bni 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Agreed. Back when I used my Oculus a lot, a RTS game called Brass Tactics was my favorite.

Brass Tactics is forgotten today, but it represents a way of playing games that was totally unique and might some day be rediscovered.

▲onetrickwolf 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Glassbreakers: Champions of Moss (same people who made Moss and Moss 2) based a lot of their design on Brass Tactics. I would say check it out but unfortunately the studio (Polyarc) went under shortly after publishing it so probably won't be seeing many updates and I'm not sure if it is even playable anymore.

It did suffer from player base problems you were basically always against bots or very high level players, but I never felt a VR UX (or any UX almost) feel so good and intuitive. It's a bit sad I feel like there is some alternate reality where a game like this would have been huge but there just doesn't seem to be the market there anymore.

▲schaefer an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I just looked up a video for this game, and looks like a really interesting take on user interface in VR. Thanks for the head's up!

▲jerf 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Since getting my Frame I think I've spent more time playing Super Mario Galaxy 2 in 3D than I have doing anything else. 3D in a window is much easier to deal with then full VR from a motion sickness perspective.

I think the VR space made an unforced error by focusing a bit too much on VR and not enough on just plain 3D. VR is cool and it has a lot of interesting applications. But I've enjoyed my time with SMG2 in a 3D window quite a bit. I've enjoyed Triangle Strategy on my Quest 3S, which is a tactics game played on a diorama. There are some other applications based on the idea like shared dungeon crawlers modeled on table-top layouts rather than first person perspective. There's a lot of games that need only minimal tweaking or fiddling that could add a bit more visual interest by being displayed in full, true 3D. The space of games that could be improved by just being playable in 3D is much larger than the space of games that can be improved by VR specifically, since the former is a superset of the latter.

Subconsciously it may feel like if you're developing for a "VR" headset, it ought to be "VR", but that's not the case. It's a well-known trap in gaming in general that when some new tech comes out there's a rush of things that feel obligated to "exploit" the tech so as not to be perceived as being behind the times, but it always becomes clear that is not necessarily. Most famously, the numerous Wii games that had to integrate "motion controls" and turned a nice, easy, concrete button press into a vague, nondeterministic "waggle" until just saying "motion controls" with a certain inflection has become a meme. There's no problem using the VR headset to enhance a game... or indeed any application... without it having to be "VR".

My Steam Frame was cheaper than this 57" curved "gaming" monitor: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CDQM55C9 If gamers are willing to drop that on nice monitors just to play games, it would make sense to drop that much on a VR headset to play them in 3D too... if there was anything to do with that.

▲Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I personally don’t like being so closed off to play video games. I like having a screen and awareness of my surroundings. Plus I’m often in voice chat with friends. Also, I don’t have to worry about things like sweat and grease on it.

I have the original PSVR and it’s been fun at times but the whole process of wearing the headset, getting it adjusted over your eyes, etc. Just always dissuades me from busting it out. I know things have gotten smaller, lighter, and easier, but nothing is as easy as simply turning on a monitor.

▲jerf 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't expect every person to instantly fall in love. I expect that it could be a more popular option than it is now if the industry hadn't been quite as monomaniacal about VR being "VR".

It doesn't help that the headset hardware space has been closed off even worse than cell phones. One of the things I hope the Steam Frame will do is crack open the space of possibilities more by virtue of being a headset that is open, and force even the closed headsets to expand their thinking. More possibilities won't hurt you, even if you are personally uninterested in them.

▲amelius 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People when playing with LEGO or board games:

"I wonder what it would look like from the perspective of the figures"

People when playing game consoles:

"I wonder what it would look like from a distance"

▲hiccuphippo 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Very cool. Doesn't seem like the best way to play Mario but it would be awesome for games like Fire Emblem or Civilization.

▲dieselgate 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Never played super Mario 64 but wondering if folks would recommend it? Between that and paper Mario is there a better “first” one to play? My only console is an n64 and am playing through golden eye right now.

The article is cool to have the “first 3D game” being played in VR.

▲banubis 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Would highly recommend it! The developers spent a ton of time on the movement, making Mario feel snappy and incredibly satisfying to navigate the worlds and maps. The levels might feel a little easy at first, but it gets increasingly complicated and more difficult as the game progresses (I still as an adult have a hard time with Tick Tock Clock).

Given the focus on mechanics, the game holds up super well. I'm genuinely impressed they were able to build such a good first ever 3d platformer!

▲well_ackshually 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

SM64 is an absolute masterpiece. It controls right, movement is simple and smooth, environments are varied. It's a totally ageless game.

Paper Mario is different and suffers more from being the first of its kind. If you're more into RPGs would be a better pick, but overall still a great game.

▲jmiskovic an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Wouldn’t it be nice if Nintendo were more like Microsoft?"

That's... completely unhinged. But, putting aside the mention of the biggest rent seeker in tech world as a role model. What's everyone's take on the gamers cheering against the Nintendo? Who's going to create this generation's own franchises like Nintendo did? What will be their incentives to invest time and effort in any new IP?

▲mahboi 40 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Some Nintendo fans think they know better than Nintendo and deserve ownership of the IP.

▲well_ackshually 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

>What's everyone's take on the gamers cheering against the Nintendo?

Nintendo is a scourge on the gaming industry. Gary Bowser is going to spend the rest of his life paying them, they illegally send DMCA takedowns on emulators, threaten developers by sending goons directly to their homes, takes away your ownership of games with their game code carts, tries to control and destroy the second hand market. Nintendo can burn.

>Who's going to create this generation's own franchises like Nintendo did?

Nintendo created zero franchises in this generation. Splatoon, maybe ? They're already creatively dry.

> What will be their incentives to invest time and effort in any new IP?

Piracy and emulation have been present for the past twenty years. Does it look like no new IPs came out in those twenty years ? Hell, for the recent recomp projects, it has been people _begging_ to be able to play games on another platform, they would have paid for it. Bloodborne has gotten a decomp that people have been screaming for for years.

Companies that believe they can get you stuck on their platforms are going to crash and burn, and we'll all be better off for it.

(Also intellectual property as a whole is a farce and has made the world worse)

▲jmiskovic 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

Nintendo remains a treasured memory of many 90s childhoods. They took great risks to innovate both on hardware and software side for ~2 decades, I'm not defending what they did since.

I'm also not arguing for intellectual property or copyright enforcement. I'm asking what comes next, I'm genuinely curious here.

▲adamddev1 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oh man, the memories that music brings back. N64 was magical when it first came out. We used to rent it from Blockbuster Video for parties with friends.

▲tombert 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Mario 64 is probably the game I have spent the most amount of time playing.

I had never really played any "open ended" games before it; sometimes I would just load up the game to run around, with no goals of collecting any stars or making any progress or anything. The platforming controls were fun even when there wasn't any specific "goal", and to a six year old kid the worlds felt huge.

As a cynical grownup who more or less knows how to write software, I now know that a lot of the "gigantic" feeling you'd have in N64 games was smoke and mirrors, but I didn't as a kid. It felt like if I just swam to some yet-unexplored corner of Jolly Roger Bay there would be something waiting for me. It doesn't hurt that the music is actually really good (particularly in Jolly Roger Bay).

Without hyperbole, as a thirty-something now, I've probably played through the game around thirty or forty times; I have most of the stars pretty thoroughly memorized and I can get an "any%" completion in a couple hours. I will still load the game up every now and again on my MiSTer. Despite being one of the first big 3D platformers, I still think it's one of the best.

▲hylaride 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Goldeneye for me. My friends and I spent HOURS every Friday night into dawn playing that, shit-talking each other. The licence to kill setting (where one hit no matter what killed you) with no-Oddjob slap fights. I often nostalgically wish I was young and immature again thinking about it.

▲The-Bus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I was excited to hear it was being rereleased on the Switch's online service. I tried to play it and couldn't get past the first level. Console FPSs have since developed pretty unified controls (with axis inversion really being the main option) that don't cleanly map onto the port. I couldn't get a familiar control scheme in GoldenEye and gave up after about 20 minutes of trying.

▲sleepybrett 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

the control scheme only makes some sense if you use the 'triwing' n64 controller IMO. Even though you have access to enough buttons and sticks etc to make it 'work' on a more modern controller design, it's still not the same.

▲iugtmkbdfil834 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is cool. And I admit I am getting into decompiling and rebuilding for funzies ( just this weekend: few old 3.1 educational games, ff11( one zone only ) and vf4( ps2, mostly failure on first attempt ). But as a side note, I was under impression apple is not big on letting emulators run on its hardware? I am mildly worried that a big hammer is gonna come down on it all pretty soon.

▲daveidol 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That is outdated now. You can run emulators on iOS and you’ll find plenty in the App Store. The only limitation right now is no JIT, which is a problem for more modern console emulation.

▲SwtCyber 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I love that we've reached a point where you can put an entire N64 level on your dining table and physically walk around it.

▲olivierestsage 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, that’s the first thing I’ve ever seen that made me want a Vision Pro (or VR/AR in general), so hats off for that. (Edit: Mario 64 pun not intended)

▲siva7 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

apple, here is your killer app for this awkward thing ;)

▲Lucasoato 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What's the current best device for VR/AR? Have there been any advancements in this field lately? Or any upcoming device that has been announced?

▲ycombinete 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's a new steam set coming out that looks excellent: https://store.steampowered.com/hardware/steamframe

▲sleepybrett 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

it's out and shipping if you are the reservation list.

▲xqcgrek2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They're all still pretty bad at around 25-40 pixels per degree, with the the higher FoV ones lower PPD.

▲LoganDark 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It varies for each person. Would need to know what you prefer in a device.

Valve's Steam Frame runs Linux that you own, but is not generally available yet if you didn't reserve one already. It suffers from LCD, low pixel density, and awful passthrough, but the software is some of the best and only getting better. In a few years Valve may offer an OLED upgrade (or a new model, but fuck that)

▲Grombobulous 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It should also be noted that there is a passthrough accessory if you want better passthrough.

The Steam Frame is squarely targeted as a pure gaming device where passthrough is less important.

▲LoganDark 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I've been pissed that using up the expansion port for passthrough means you don't have an expansion port anymore. It's such a missed opportunity.

Seems nobody has realized this or nobody cares. I haven't seen anyone else notice or mention it.

> The Steam Frame is squarely targeted as a pure gaming device

It's technically also supposed to be a Linux PC, and there are some (not many) productivity features.

In any case, I'd prefer to be able to at least read notifications instead of having to take the headset off every time I get a message or an e-mail or whatever.

▲wlesieutre 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For Android devices you can mirror them into the frame without much fuss

https://github.com/bangfireball/Phonecast_VR

▲LoganDark 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I view my notifications on my Mac... My phone won't even unlock with the headset on (one reason I hate face ID)

▲voidUpdate 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The expansion port docs seem to imply you can have two passthrough cameras and a pcie gen4 lane at the same time, so a designer could probably allow a passthrough

https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/SteamHardware/SteamFrame/-/blob... (page 9, "supported configurations")

▲andai 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fantastic! It's been a very cool week for technology.

▲and0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I made something similar for the NES and Hololens, though much less functional as the Hololens didn't support the Xbox controller at the time, and the FOV was very narrow. Some MS employees added controller support during a hackathon, which was cool to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEWcc-cF3g0

I've been thinking about how to port and remaster retro games for a decade now and AI RE/decomp has blown all of my ideas out of the water. Exciting times for gamers (or anyone else who has used published binaries ie Photoshop), despite my other misgivings about generative AI.

▲AlexITC 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Looks amazing! Apple headset has lots of potential but the price is insane.

▲Grombobulous 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Because it’s such a failure, the used pricing on eBay almost looks attractive. The depreciation is very real.

Although it’s possible that the original M2 processor variant isn’t something to invest in.

▲chorsestudios 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not a failure to me. It is the most exciting piece of computer hardware to program apps for that I've purchased in the last decade. I understand why others consider it a failure though, and wonder how it would have performed if it weren't so expensive.

My hope was that it was going to pave the way for apple to release a pair of glasses that had some of the functionality of the Vision Pro. I'm guessing this is still one of their goals, however Meta and even SnapChat beat them to it.

▲bitwize 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The Vision Pro was the Mac 128K of its class of device. The original 1984 Macintosh was, at its release, anemically underpowered due to its low and unexpandable RAM, not to mention comically expensive for what you got; but it showed the potential of where such a system could go. I think that the Vision Pro hasn't found product-market fit on its own but it points the way to a brighter future for VR and for Apple's role in that space.

▲Grombobulous 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To clarify, when I say “failure” I mean sales volume and adoption. I’m sure it’s a competent device.

▲AlexITC 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A while ago I checked the 2nd hand market where I live but this headset is barely listed. The few ones are expensive-enough that I'd rather purchase a new one.

▲Grombobulous 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I am seeing about $1800 with free shipping, that’s basically half the price of a new one.

▲haunter 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sadly most of them are listed in the US so shipping and customs would kill these deals for everyone not there

▲QuantumNomad_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Way to Play

I knew this was going to be another case of HN title filtering!

▲barbazoo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

One must not say something is "best"?

▲peesem 2 hours ago | parent [-]

too clickbaity. this title should have just been "Super Mario 64 on Apple Vision Pro"