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▲ ks2048 2 hours ago

So, Meta will spend millions/billions on building open-weight models and then people will send Apple $20,000 to run them. Seems like a good deal for Apple.

▲Juvination 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Exactly why does Apple need to do any model training/development? They are out here selling the shovels.

▲bredren an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Apple’s Photos ecosystem is privacy oriented and as a result some (now) baseline features require the use of local models.

The Foundation models keep a surprisingly decent set of data available for fast filtering by a local LLM.

I’ve found a slower, second pass, is needed by Qwen to clean it up. (I am running on the new Mac Mini m5 pro 64gb.)

I’ve run my own tests using a date range, a short description of a red cedar planter box build I did last year, and a set of known correct photos.

There is some cool stuff you can do without sending your family’s pics up to any of the frontier model providers.

▲cj00 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I've found some strange guardrails with the Foundation models. Like blocking describing of any photo with a single woman in it. It does this relatively consistently but with a different subset every time. Like out of 10 photos in the set, it's skips 6 then the next run, it skips 3. Have you seen guardrail issues like this?

I switched to Gemma 4 instead.

▲dominotw 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

same i am using new embeddinggemma. seems far more capable than foundation models.

▲soulofmischief an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't want any of these features and yet they've been forced upon me and are now getting in the way of me actually using my computer how I want. Games and heavy applications slow down and stutter because of "AI" background processes, even with App Tamer, my machine runs too hot to even touch when just idling. Compared to when I got my M2 in '23 and thought, "This is the fastest and snappiest machine I've ever used", my experience with an M5 and the latest macOS version is nothing short of an anti-consumer hellscape.

▲doug_durham 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

My Macs run cool and silently. I've never observed a background "AI" process consuming resources.

▲papa_bear 18 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Interesting, this has not been my experience at all. I have an M5 machine and I'm not even aware of what AI features have been added, and it's streets ahead of my old M1 Pro in speed.

▲MangoCoffee 16 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nvidia is also selling the shovle but they train their own LLM and by doing so they can fine tune their CUDA/Chip to have a better shovel than others.

Nvidia's own model does not have to beat OpenAI or any SOTA model. Nvidia just need to build up the in house expert and knowledge to make a better chip since hyperscalers and none hyperscaler like Meta is building their own AI chip now.

Apple can chose not to train their own model to learn how to sell a better shovel.

▲rswail an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly my thought as I read it.

They make and sell the hardware that will actually make AI something everyone can used without needing to rely on OpenAI/Anthropic et al.

Apple has never had a moat, anyone else could have built this sort of hardware but they haven't.

So they don't care which model wins, because it will always move out to the edge of the network, and they own a large chunk of that edge.

▲drob518 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Well, the moat is that cpu/npu development is very hard, requires talented engineers, and requires access to cutting edge fab process, all of which in turn costs a lot of $$$. So, sure, “anyone” who has all that can definitely breach Apple’s moat.

▲uurue1 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

Ok.. and why specifically do people work at Apple?

Hint: money is not the only reason.

Jeez.

▲uurue1 25 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Ermmm what?

Apples largest competitive advantage has always been and always will be - trust combined with epic marketing to make the vast majority of people aware of it.

Trust of quality, privacy w.r.t data etc.

I’m sorry but I’ve seen so many bad takes re. Apple over the years. Many of you think you are so smart on topics outside of your domain - but you’re not.

▲fasterik 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

What exactly about the parent comment is wrong? Apple has always been good at making hardware that people are willing to pay a premium to use. I can easily imagine them playing a similar role in local LLMs to the role they played in smartphones in the 2010s.

▲oakejp12 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> Apples largest competitive advantage has always been and always will be - trust.

Lmao

> Many of you think you are so smart on topics outside of your domain

Turn the mirror around

▲jorblumesea an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

apple is pretty well set up for this because they do all their hardware in house. if they wanted to, they could pivot in this direction. Ternus is also a hardware guy.

▲loeg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How big is the local LLM market? I have trouble imagining Apple will move enough units to make $20k/ea worth it for them as a business segment.

▲____tom____ 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

They have been sold out of a lot of units, due to people developing AI, so apparently, it is significant.

▲Lalabadie 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the bet is that it will get bigger, both at the consumer level, and with orgs eventually discovering ready-made solutions for having their own on-prem inference.

▲ijidak 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

100,000 units a year would be $2 billion annually.

And usually, most of a company's revenue comes from the heaviest spenders.

So figure there are some out there who will by tens of these because they have some "idea to change the world". (Whether true or not.) Some startups, etc.

I'd wager, across planet earth right now, it should be trivial to push 100,000 units per year. Probably closer to 500,000 units per year. So that's an easy $10 billion a year.

$2-10 billion is meaningful for any company. Even one as large is Apple.

Especially if it's a first step towards a stronger foothold in the AI inference space.

They can then expand down market to grow the pie further.

For example, with truly dedicated inference boxes.

And given the demand for $7,000 Sparks and sold out $5,000 GPUs, the market for these $20,000 machines is likely much higher than my 100,000 unit lower bound. (Earth is a big place. It doesn't take much excitement to generate massive sales in a space with currently insatiable demand.)

▲ 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲reilly3000 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They have the best strategy of bigtechco: let others figure out the squishier layers while they focus on selling the best hardware. Privacy has incredible value to a lot of individuals and industries. $20-80k in hardware that *appreciates* the moment you buy it is a reasonable investment for a lot of SMBs, and still less than a single Nvidia rig. Privacy pays.

▲bigyabai 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

If we're being frank here, Apple's AI strategy lags behind Nvidia, AMD and even Google. Nvidia has CUDA, AMD ships CDNA, Google has the TPU family, and Apple... well, Apple discontinued the rackmount Mac Pro, forfeit the HPC ARM datacenter to Nvidia's Grace CPUs, refuses to sign CUDA drivers, and spent half a decade designing raster GPUs instead of GPGPUs.

All of their competition has real inference and training stacks. Apple ships an iGPU and a smartphone NPU, they're reliant on Nvidia and Google hardware to deliver Apple Intelligence.

▲GeekyBear an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many 5080 16 Gig cards would you have to buy to run the same model, and what would that cost?

▲fluidcruft an hour ago | parent [-]

idk but naive me sees the article say the model needed 158GB of RAM so I guess 10x 16GB GPUs? Apparently retail price is $1k per 5080 16GB but they're actually selling at $1.5k so I guess $15k for just the GPUs.

▲petu an hour ago | parent [-]

158GB number is for Mistral Medium 3.5 128B model, Muse Spark is way larger.

  Muse Spark Open would require more than 1.6TB of RAM in its native precision (BF16) for the model parameters alone. In a 4-bit quantized (NVFP4) format, the model memory footprint is lowered to about 493GB.
▲bigyabai an hour ago | parent [-]

So about 24gb/expert at NVFP4. If you compressed the KV cache, you might be able to get away with 2x 24GB cards and stream the experts.

▲petu an hour ago | parent [-]

If you're happy with generation speed in 5 t/s range, sure -- PCIe 5.0 x16 is only 64GB/s.

▲bigyabai an hour ago | parent [-]

I never said it would be fast!

In any case, I'd much rather run GLM 5.3 Flash on that sort of hardware. Better fit for the performance profile, and will probably beat Muse Spark Open in most uses.

▲rvz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both companies are profitable and AI is not their main line of business. This affects pure AI companies.

As open weight models continue to match frontier models, the race to $0 will continue to benefit supporters of running open weight models locally.

▲srmatto an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

▲informal007 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It won't be free for Apple to use Meta's model in the future.