| ▲ | random3 6 hours ago |
| As much as this looks like a math problem, it's actually an everyone problem. Some hands-on (literally) have more way to go, but otherwise this is a "hop" that the entire society needs to cross. Honestly, I don't think there's going to be be any Math 2.0 as there won't be any other 2.0, at least not in any utilitarian way and the effort to find utility where there's none is misguided at best. The analogy I like to make is that with horses trying to find utility y in the Ford era. It's also not an OpenAI, Anthropic or any specific name caused problem. This type of progress has always been happening, it's more or less coincidental (like Stigler's law). The problem though is we need to rethink how we operate as a society and too few (IMO) are trying to make this conversation happen. |
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| ▲ | Loquebantur 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| You cannot use mathematics without understanding it. It doesn't help you that AI understands it, when you don't. You are the one getting screwed over by others who understand statistics better than you do. When you're rich enough, you can pay others (or AI) to protect you. But then you're dependent upon them. So, under a transactional model of social relationships, you are in an arms race over raw intelligence and competency/data. With only one winner, who takes all in the end. Logically, most people have already lost in that game, so why keep playing that nonsense? |
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| ▲ | mrngld 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can't use mathematics without understanding it? Let's say GPT-23 Astra grinds away for a full month one day and out pops a warp drive. Our best physicists ask it to explain. The resulting stream of text is essentially incomprehensible. But, they build a scale model at its direction to test and sure enough it does the Kessel run in 12 parsecs. Are you saying we shouldn't hop aboard the USS Enterprise and check out Alpha Centauri because we don't understand the math? I think what's really happening here is that there's an ivory-tower academic class that feels entitled to make their living at public expense thinking about and writing about their topic of interest, and along comes a new tool that's changing that dynamic up. Meanwhile, in the real world, the value remains with people who can take whatever the tool of the day is and do useful things with it. Which, I think, is why despite all the talk the only professional job losses blamed on AI appear to largely be companies that had a failed strategy of some sort or another and used AI as a boogeyman to do the layoff that they needed to do anyway. To people living in the private sector this isn't seen as a dangerous invader, LLM's are productivity multipliers. | | |
| ▲ | curt15 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Let's say GPT-23 Astra grinds away for a full month one day and out pops a warp drive. In the real world, the frontier labs are still hiring lots of humans for business and software roles (https://openai.com/careers/search/) despite being better positioned than anyone to automate them away with their world-beating models and save a bunch of salaries. | |
| ▲ | 239ajsz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > LLM's are productivity multipliers. For automated AI shilling ... |
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| ▲ | skybrian 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That seems wrong unless you have an unusual definition of "understanding": * Lots of people use math for calculations without having proven any theorems. * You can understand a mathematical statement without understanding or even having a proof. There are proofs built on the axiom of choice and conjectured results. | |
| ▲ | random3 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you can understand* math in general. I think not understanding something it's a matter of presentation. Also I think the presentation can be improved. A good-quality AI can do both, hence it can get a presentation that you can understand. Yet this has zero utility (other than your own satisfaction). Once you understand something, you will likely not even do a better job at explaining it to someone else, so the utility is strictly limited to yourself. So even ignoring ability to understand the problem is the cost/efficiency of understanding (and applying it). I agree with your other statements, but I feel you're suggesting the non-sense is scoped to just math. It's not it's almost everything that we do (exceptions are social interactions including care taking, etc.) So in this frame your "nonsense" is (almost) everything that we do. Personally I'd like to keep doing things. | | |
| ▲ | kronnpp 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | "in mathematics you don't understand things, you just get used to them" John von Neumann |
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| ▲ | leonflexo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That also means that you will need buy-in from a plurality/majority of that society to make that "hop". This is not going to break politically this election cycle, but it will show up. Barring a 2008 level event, it will likely be the issue with the greatest growth heading into 2028, and that will place the impetus on the "specific name"s to communicate how this isn't just trickle down benefits. Especially when it will be an easy sell to people that the "hop" means real people falling into the gap or getting left behind. They need to figure out a way to make the distribution of benefits more immediate and tangible to everyday folks, because the perception of the distributed costs is a very easy sell in this political environment, regardless of the reality. I can't imagine that getting better over the next two years. |
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| ▲ | Avicebron 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, the tangibility of benefits really need to be felt, especially for the so called "deplorables" who would like to swing for a politician that can demonstrate that they will get them housing, healthcare, prosperity in their communities. High paying jobs across the educational ladder and in rural areas also wouldn't hurt. | | |
| ▲ | mrngld 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Like my other comment, this might be a public-vs-private sector misconception. I can't help but notice my own employers IT and design departments, which both lean pretty right, openly use Codex to help with about everything. One group is even training their own model at the moment. And our marketing team, which is solid blue? They're the only team in the company allowed to use both Claude and ChatGPT because they claimed, repeatedly and loudly, that both were critical to their jobs because Claude was better at design (they say) and Chat for everything else (again, their claim, not mine). No one wants a data center in their back yard, but in the private sector I think adoption isn't as political as some make it on Hacker News. |
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| ▲ | jassyr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| too few are talking about reshaping society because those in power are not letting that happen. the amount of wealth concentrated at the top is staggering and allows them to fortify their position by bribing, buying governments and media. |
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| ▲ | skybrian 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No, it's not an "everyone" problem yet. Each field is likely on its own timeline. Knowing how well AI is at proving theorems is of only limited use for predicting what will happen and when in other fields. |
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| ▲ | random3 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The yet compressing into now is the definition of singularity. I'd argue that it's "only of limited use" if you don't understand the problem well enough - so yes, it's limited for predicting anything for most people but that doesn't make it an irrelevant aspect at predicting in general. | | |
| ▲ | skybrian 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why bring up the singularity? It hasn't happened and might not happen the way anyone thinks. For example, the timelines in different fields might not all go vertical at the same time. So, you could get something like an Internet singularity without a corresponding robotics singularity. Also, war is different from civilian applications. The use of drones to bomb data centers doesn't imply that drones will be useful for civilian applications like delivering pizza. There's no particular reason to believe that solving math theorems generalizes to engineering or robotics without a whole lot of additional work. |
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| ▲ | xg15 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I love how "society" is investing billions to develop a tech that makes its own citizens obsolete, but doesn't manage to provide basic healthcare, housing or infrastructure... |
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| ▲ | esafak 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That why our ancestors repurposed their pitchforks. History is marked by a drive towards inequality, punctuated by bouts of war and revolution that trigger a reset. | |
| ▲ | shimman 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is the society capitalists want tho, they don't care about the wellbeing of humans they just care about profit. | |
| ▲ | warkdarrior 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Once the citizens are made obsolete, there is no need for healthcare, housing, or (human) infrastructure. Just electricity, cooling water, and Internet connectivity. | |
| ▲ | tempodox 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Obsolete citizens don’t need healthcare, housing or infrastructure. They will just die of hunger and exposure and then the rich and powerful can frolic unencumbered in paradise. | | |
| ▲ | bluefirebrand 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | As usual, HN does not want to hear this even though it really does seem like a likely outcome, if not The Actual Goal of all of this automation. | | |
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