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▲ toomuchtodo 2 hours ago

Sort of. Big fan of 404media usually, but they need to "look through the bubble" to understand this can and likely will be replicated on device when local models and inference catch up, which they will eventually (Apple Intelligence, Hermes, OpenClaw, etc). Slap iCloud and Google Storage sync on the app, and you've got your own character bots in your device ecosystem.

▲jghn an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> which they will eventually

"eventually" is doing a lot of work here. Like sure, yes, eventually. But that could be later this year or it could be 50 years from now. We don't know the answer to that. Assuming it's going to happen in a timeline short enough to matter for this conversation isn't worthwhile. It's like saying eventually we'll have cold fusion, so why is everyone skeptical?

▲verdverm an hour ago | parent [-]

I believe it is much closer than you realize

https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen-Image-2.1-Turbo (7B)

▲jghn an hour ago | parent [-]

It may be, I didn't say otherwise. I said we don't know for a fact that this moment will come in the near future, so just handwaving that it's obvious is folly.

▲verdverm an hour ago | parent [-]

There are already llms on phones now, they are being embedded / distributed by iOS and Android. You can find HN stories and comments about the struggle to disable or the joy of having them. Tons of Show HN about getting models to run on all sorts of devices, including phones

▲jghn an hour ago | parent [-]

There's a difference between having "an llm" on a small device and having an llm of the class being discussed in this comment thread.

As I said, it may happen within a year. But maybe life takes a different direction. The person to whom I responded said "eventually", and yes, "eventually" it will happen. but that's not a useful time horizon to plan around because it could be a lot of things.

▲toomuchtodo an hour ago | parent [-]

If you build your app today to use an LLM API with credits so the economics works (or support existing LLM providers who can provide an API key for use within the app, to not expose the app to negative usage economics), but it has the capability to switch to a local API using existing known primitives, I think that is very useful in this context, no?

The hard part is refining the UX, imho, while supporting pluggable LLM support on the backend. If the future never arrives of cheap on device inference, still works if you pay as you go and for those users willing to pay for their usage directly through their cloud inference provider of choice or through the app (unless the future is "cloud inference is unsustainable at consumer price points and on prem inference never arrives"). Just my two cents.

This is fundamentally what Apple did with new Siri, powered by Gemini today. They will eventually flip the switch to an in house solution. Agree the wildcard that still remains is "can this be done on devices eventually?"

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2026/09/siri-ai-a-profoundly-...

https://www.macrumors.com/2025/11/05/apple-siri-google-gemin...

> Apple weighed using its own AI models for the LLM version of Siri , and also tested options from OpenAI and Anthropic, but it decided to go with Gemini after deciding Anthropic's fees were too high. Apple already has a partnership with Google for search results, with Google paying Apple around $20 billion per year to be the default search engine option on Apple devices.

> Though Apple is planning to rely on Google AI for now, it plans to continue working on its own models and will transition to an in-house solution when its LLMs are capable enough. Apple is already working on a 1 trillion parameter cloud-based model that could be ready as soon as 2026. Apple is unlikely to publicize its arrangement with Google while it develops in-house models.

▲sc68cal 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, your contention is that 404media isn't taking into consideration a hypothetical where they wouldn't burn millions of dollars each month running something.

▲toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, which I say as a subscriber and donor to 404media (they do very good journalism work imho) and someone who leans more towards AI skeptic while being a heavy user in specific domains. "It's not a business, it's a feature."

Durable storage + sufficiently performant local LLM hardware + appropriate models [last two are wildcards and hard to predict the forward curve imho] = this experience locally. Remember when mobile video hardware acceleration wasn't good? And now, it is very good.

▲sc68cal an hour ago | parent [-]

None of that has any relevance to what is happening right now. Character.ai is in chapter 11 bankruptcy, and "oh they should have done it differently, and 404media isn't taking into consideration a completely unproven hypothetical technology that wouldn't have bankrupted them" is not a useful discussion, nor a good critique of their coverage.

▲toomuchtodo an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Title assertion:

> Character.ai's Bankruptcy Documents Show the Economics of AI Don't Work

My comments:

"I don't agree, here is why."

This specific model doesn't appear to be economically sustainable and/or commercially viable. That is a reasonable statement and assertion, based on the evidence presented. Does not mean the economics of AI in general do not work. That's a very broad statement! Nuance, words mean things.

Therefore, we should ask ourselves and discuss, "Under what circumstances could|would the economics work? Are there any? Or are there none?" We are discussing the problem space! Be more curious.

▲verdverm an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Some (most?) journalist skimp on the nuance. Character.ai is not representative of the entire Ai ecosystem and market. There are a lot of other factors that played a role here than the Ai economics themselves.

▲nemomarx 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems harder to sell on device ai as a subscription, I would guess? although the much lower inference costs mean maybe you could just sell it as a one time purchase

▲tripleee 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

By on device you mean running locally on a mobile device like an iPhone? If so we're a really long way from a chatbot that's engaging to talk to. There's just not enough processing power to do it

No-one's going to want to talk to a 7B model for more than 3 minutes

▲post-it 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I think we're a breakthrough away. I don't think processing power is an issue. A 7B model has a lot of cruft (like knowledge of code syntax) that a character sim doesn't need. It should be possible to extract just the relevant parts of a larger and more powerful model and run it with the same resources you would run a general 7B model. We just don't have the ability to isolate and extract weights like that yet.

▲Tuna-Fish 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, current gen hardware was not built to run such models, and are obviously inefficient and bad at it.

Significant investment is being spent on producing hardware that is more suitable for running mid-sized (100B-ish) models. Starting with flash chips with wide enough interfaces to provide the weights (NAND flash can be ~5x more energy-efficient for reads than DRAM), and going into more exotic solutions like compute-in-memory.

▲toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, iphone, ipad, mac. Maybe your phone makes the inference requests to either Apple servers (requiring iCloud+ and credit based?) or your Mac (Tailscale equivalent).

My assumptions are that inference costs continue to decline (and/or the difficulty level of routing requests declines) and hardware acceleration continues into the future. These assumptions might be wrong, but that is the idea the thesis is based around.

(have built workflows and harnesses that currently target LLM provider APIs under the assumption I'll be able to point "locally-ish" eventually, my career had a strong focus on distributed computing about 10-15 years ago, think managing data and work clusters for LHC detector data processing, and I grew up on hobbyist distributed.net and BOINC projects, all the lenses I see this problem through; queues, jobs, sync vs async performance optimization, etc; recovered sysadmin|infra/devops engineer a lifetime ago)

▲reactordev 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I can have full conversations with Gemma4 on my phone, no server requests, with voice.

▲toomuchtodo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Excellent, thank you for the data point substantiating my thesis.

▲DoctorOW 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Isn't the majority of AI compute training and not inference? Saying "It doesn't matter if the AI companies fold because I can run models on my computer" is like saying "I don't care if the farm closes because I get my food from the grocery store"

▲quxbar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's more like saying 'I don't care if monsanto goes under because I will save my own seeds to plant next year's crops'.

▲sublinear 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You are correct, but I think it's much more like consumer culture doesn't and never will care about any of these details.

Specifically with regard to AI, the consumers aren't even aware of the "grocery store" either. They're being served from a silver platter. What matters most is the quality of results, not the methods. You can disagree all you want for whatever (good and compelling) reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that many people do not even buy groceries now and doordash everything.

If it turns out that you can put a mobile kitchen in their backyard that cooks up everything without them realizing, it makes no difference to the consumer.

Realistically, yes there's a finite amount of training data, hence the plateau in capability we've seen for at least a year. I think we're likely to see a consolidation and compression of all of this into local models. The economics don't support the expected growth of the current arrangement either. There simply isn't that much distinct data out there as initially assumed.