| ▲ | causal 3 hours ago |
| Yeah I always find dot com burst comparison apt because like, yeah market corrections will probably happen, but even if you invested in big tech RIGHT before the burst you would probably still be very rich today if you just held. |
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| ▲ | NoboruWataya 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is the definition of survivorship bias. There are a ton of tech stocks that you would have lost your shirt on had you invested in them just prior to the crash. Even if you invested in a company that ultimately became a winner, you'd need to be able to hold on to it throughout the correction. You put your savings in tech stocks, the tech sector undergoes a significant correction, the stocks dive, you get laid off because you also work in tech and now you have to liquidate your stocks to meet your obligations. (Or you just retire at the wrong time.) |
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| ▲ | paimapi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Right, people often look to companies like Intel, AMD, Nvidia and think 'If only I held!' They don't look at 3DFX, Transmeta, Centillium, Virata, or the numerous other companies because they are dead in the graveyard of failed companies that have lost full valuation. Depending on how much you invest in each, if you panic-buy/sell, etc changes all that. You're also ultimately betting on whether or not there will ever be another bubble/hype in the industry, and that you are betting wide enough into fully speculative companies like Nvidia instead of just aiming for power players. People forget that the market for luxury PC hardware barely existed at the time and was populated by a very small group of wealthy consumers. Expecting that to take off against the cheap prices of console offerings and against the technical know-how of assembling/disassembling PCs is closer to faith than any rationale. Just by law of probability and total number of actual bagholders, the vast majority of people didn't bet that way. But I guess if you think you're special or have some lucrative insight into the industry, you might think you're an exception to that rule. | | |
| ▲ | BiraIgnacio 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Right, the other case seems to definitely be happening > 'Yikes': CoreWeave stock sinks after its bond yield touched 15% https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/article/yikes-coreweave... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50090791 | |
| ▲ | bushbaba 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure but if you bought a broad index you were fine | | |
| ▲ | paimapi 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Again, that depends on how long you hold and when you cash out. Most people don't get rich: https://archive.nytimes.com/screenshots/www.nytimes.com/inte... I'm sure there are studies out there on the ratio of upper-middle-to-upper class households vs not, adjusted for inflation, with surveys on how they invest (if they do at all) with other factors accounted for. I know for sure that the total number of households who hold index funds (50+%) [0] far exceeds households that have a million+ in assets (10+%) [1]. If index funds were some magic bullet investment vehicle for multiplying your money, we'd see better ratios than 1:5 with only the top 20% becoming wealthy-adjacent (and that's provided that 100% of the millionaire class got rich via index funds and not other means like real estate). [0] https://www.ici.org/news-release/ici-report-shows-mutual-fun... [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/guess-percent-people-1-millio... edit: as a corollary, I was just talking about this with someone who works in finance and the sentiment amongst ICs like them, they say, is that this is definitely a bubble that will pop at some point. The only contention is how devastating the effects will be, if it'll be a slump, a recession, or a depression. | | |
| ▲ | KellyCriterion 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | WOW, MANY thanks for linking the NYT graphic! Its very good and tells a lot! Thanks for sharing! |
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| ▲ | causal 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To spell out my thinking more completely: Yes, I did not mean AskJeeves specifically, I meant broad investment. And likewise nobody should go all in on just SpaceXSI or whatever. And in any case no, you should not pour your money into tech stocks if you need that money to eat, that was true then as it is today. | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This is the definition of survivorship bias. There are a ton of tech stocks that you would have lost your shirt on had you invested in them just prior to the crash. Which is why you buy an index, rather than try pick individual stocks. | | |
| ▲ | Danox 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Buy individual stocks in blue chip companies. The return is always better but if you do buy individual stocks, you have to actually pay attention to that individual company that you invested in does, in short continue to do your homework, in the current bubble, invest in the companies that have great fundamentals (revenue and actual profit) do not invest in those companies where the financials are terrible and have been terrible for years, yet they still command a high price, eventually the party ends. Currently, there are three companies owned by the same person, the financials and their relative performance/competitiveness is not good despite the oversized hype in comparison to other blue chip companies. But many people have gotten great returns however, it is a don’t get caught holding the bag type of stocks Hint: The three companies are owned by same guy and has a cult like following. |
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| ▲ | jermaustin1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The problem is psychology. People don't HODL while their retirements drop by 20, 30, 40% in a week. High earners might, institutions can, but regular every day people they take the loss, and might never go back into the market again, forgoing those recovery years. The average recovery is 18 months I think (I'm in a meeting, and can't look it up), but people like my dad watched his retirement fizzle out in the dotcom bubble, because he was all in on tech. Then he moved to safer bond and realestate funds, and his value never recovered, and then 07/08 happened and he watched what he thought were "safe" investments disappear almost immediately. He pulled everything out of the market, and never invested again. He went through 2 crashes on his portfolio, and to this day doesn't trust stocks and bonds. He was sold an annuity that according to him is supposed to double it's payout every 5 years it is left un touched, so he didn't touch it for 15 years, now that he is drawing it down, it draws from principal before ever touching the growth, and when he dies, only the principal will get passed to my mother. It was basically a scam. |
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| ▲ | Espressosaurus 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Peak to peak, inflation adjusted, can be 10 to 15 years for the really big busts though. It's not entirely irrational if you moved in at the peak. If you were in on the upside then you've got much less ground to retrace. And it's painful to watch your holdings drop like you said if you're planning on retiring in the next 1, 2, 5 years. So I get it. If you're 25 you've got tons of room to maneuver. If you're 60 things are a lot less rosy (even if by now you should theoretically be cycling into less volatile assets. But bonds didn't do that great either over that period) . | | |
| ▲ | yxhuvud 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | For Cisco it took 25 years. But that is assuming they survive the bust, which is not a given. | | |
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| ▲ | jakeydus 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah I made millions by hanging on to my pets.com stock and just riding the wave. |
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| ▲ | KellyCriterion 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | In most western countries, pets are on #2 after spendings for children in households, so your bet made sense. Though, as a lot of companies, tractions wasnt big enough back then. Today, e.g. ZooPlus is one of the biggest pet-stuff-retailers (2023 revenue 2.5billion) | | |
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| ▲ | jollyllama 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No. If you bought Cisco it never recovered, once you factor in inflation. Almost the same with Intel. |
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| ▲ | gizmo686 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you invested in XLK (State Street Technology Select Sector SPDR ETF) In March of 2000 (just before the .com bust), you would have underperfomred SPY (S&P 500) until June 2026. As of today, the spread between the two is just over 1%, with good reason to believe that we are in another tech bubble. https://www.etftimemachine.com/en/compare/XLK-vs-SPY?start=2... Had you invested in XLK when it opened in 1998, then following the .com crash, it would take until early 2020 to return to parity to the S&P 500. |
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| ▲ | nzeid 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Held what? A majority of those companies evaporated. You'd have to cut your losses and reinvest. |
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| ▲ | lkey 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Survivorship bias. It took the companies that survived a decade or more to recover. You still have to pay bills while you endure inflation and the opportunity costs in the meantime. |
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| ▲ | 2OEH8eoCRo0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, if you only invest in winners you'd be very rich! Which companies will be the winners though? Nobody knows. What about the hundreds of losers that looked good right before the burst? My coworker retells a story where he dumped his life savings in dotcom companies that went to zero. |
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| ▲ | Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd start from a slightly more-charitable assumption which ends up in a slightly different "Hold up that's a little optimistic" territory. 1. Yes, if someone generally invested in "dot-com stocks" before that crash--covering both winners and losers--they might today have a surprising amount of (potential) dollars. 2. However much of that impressive-looking sum would be just because of 25-30 years in the market. 3. So we need to scale that "very rich" against someone putting the same money into an total-stock market index fund back then, which may not make it look nearly as impressive. | | |
| ▲ | 2OEH8eoCRo0 an hour ago | parent [-] | | I could have been more charitable. I think their key word was "big" tech. The blue chips. What were the tech blue chips before the dotcom crash? Microsoft, Cisco, Intel, IBM, Oracle, Etc. Some might call Enron blue chip. I think their point mostly holds though. If you'd have invested in the blue chips and held you'd likely do well. |
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| ▲ | mjr00 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is pretty much why the best financial advice for 99.99% of people is "stick with index funds". Yeah you won't get extremely lucky and 200x your money because you bought NVidia a decade ago, but you also won't lose all your money because you bought Enron. | | |
| ▲ | pmg101 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Does this advice still hold once 99.99% of people are invested in index funds? | | |
| ▲ | Espressosaurus 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not clear yet. Index funds are now an enormous part of the market and players are starting to play them (see SpaceX, and given the door they opened OpenAI and Anthropic to follow). | |
| ▲ | shigawire 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And big tech is a large part of most indexes | |
| ▲ | mjr00 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean probably? It's still a much lower-risk strategy compared to investing in individual stocks. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | TremendousJudge 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | what? you mean that all my beenz.com stock is worth nil?? but it's an online currency! it's the future! | | |
| ▲ | toast0 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hey, at least Flooz was used by a crime syndicate. That's market validation. |
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| ▲ | Hamuko 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I was under the impression that if you bought Cisco stock for $1000 during the height of the bubble, you'd have like $1500 now? |
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| ▲ | nancyminusone 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Inflation calculator puts that 1k at a value of 1.95k today. Seems like a lousy 26 year investment. I guess it's better than putting it under your matress. | |
| ▲ | rcxdude 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think it's more if you had invested in an index fund you'd be in a pretty good place. Individual companies would have a much larger range of outcomes (as ever). | |
| ▲ | yxhuvud 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe, but 50% growth in a stock over 25 years is fairly bad. | |
| ▲ | dragontamer 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's pretty good. I know people who bought Ask Jeeves at the height of the bubble. |
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